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Smartphones with Qualcomm chip secretly send personal data to Qualcomm

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Re: Smartphones with Qualcomm chip secretly send personal data to Qualcomm

#151

Post by strictnein »

dagmx wrote: post #3

This seems like a really shallow dive into what’s going on, and seems to exist largely to plug their own hardware? For example, how is the chipset getting “List of the software on the device” unless the chipset is aware of the operating system? They don’t actually do any packet data analysis to see what it includes as far as I can tell, so other than seeing some packets go through, the rest feels like idle speculatio…

100% this. I was assuming we'd see some Wireshark showing this "personal" data being transferred and some proof that it was the Qualcomm chip doing it. What we ended with was a "trust me bro" explanation and a sales pitch.

Re: Smartphones with Qualcomm chip secretly send personal data to Qualcomm

#152

Post by mindslight »

dcow wrote: post #137
mindslight wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Into perspective" is exactly wrong, because it means accepting all the tenuous assumptions used to justify the design in the first place. The problem is not that an automaker wanted to have functionality that could legitimately unlock cars for legitimate customers. The problem is that creating this functionality entailed making a much larger backdoor that will invariably be abused by independent attackers, police, t…

Citation/examples needed. There have been numerous talks at security conferences and solid research done on the security of Teslas. I don’t think you realize how sophisticated these things are. The infotainment system and the CAM bus are not the same software, for example. And attackers aren’t gaining remote access to them either (Teslas use stronger ssh keys than you do). So I’m not sure how this mega backdoor FUD e…

> Teslas use stronger ssh keys than you do

SSH !?! This supports my point - a remote command prompt is much more functionality than what is required to unlock doors. It's not really appropriate to talk about this level of control as if it's merely a necessity for remote door unlocking.

You're the one engaging in histrionics here - sour grapes about the lopsided relationship that was included with functionality you enjoy, as well as strawmanning those concerned with how ownership is being eroded as rare enthusiasts or "hyper paranoid". FWIW it's perfectly consistent to pragmatically trust specific manufacturer(s) today, while still being concerned about the societal effects of centralized control continuing to be normalized.

It's certainly possible to implement the same functionality you're enjoying in ways that put the owner in charge and treat the company as a possible attacker. But it takes more rigorous design and development, and isn't likely to happen on its own as long as people continue to carry water for simplistic centralization.

Re: Smartphones with Qualcomm chip secretly send personal data to Qualcomm

#153

Post by amelius »

JohnFen wrote: post #81
yakireev wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine if you bought a car from somebody, and they secretly kept a spare key and periodically used your car to run their personal errand. This is happening already. Teslas can be controlled remotely, and it does not have to be the owner of said Tesla. Yes, somehow people are okay with that. The world we live in gets scarier and scarier every year.

Yep. This is, in part, why not only won't I ever own a Tesla, but I won't be owning cars that are too new.

> but I won't be owning cars that are too new.

Nobody will "own" their car, anyway.

Re: Smartphones with Qualcomm chip secretly send personal data to Qualcomm

#154

Post by namibj »

bgun wrote: post #144
wlesieutre wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's like buying a Tesla https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...

But worse, it's like being required to own a Tesla because it's the only car available.

And the cameras being integrated so the driving would break if you'd neutralize them.

Re: Smartphones with Qualcomm chip secretly send personal data to Qualcomm

#156

Post by inamberclad »

freedomben wrote: post #45
joezydeco wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but trying to be optimistic about RISC-V is only going to lead to more pain. It's just an instruction set architecture and it's still going to be made in large SoC fabs by Qualcomm-class companies that want to save a buck on ARM licensing. There's no way to win here.

You're right RISC-V just existing won't save us. I mentioned in a sibling comment, but my hope is that it leads to more competition so there are at least options. It probably is naive since these days there are tech startups and tech giants, and any startup that starts to gain traction will go for an exit strategy to be acquired, then it will killed. So things are probably not going to get much better. Perhaps though…

What does an ISA really help with, though? Qualcomm doesn't have an advantage because of an ISA, they have an advantage because creating power efficient RF designs that keep up with the latest standards is incredibly hard. Until someone can compete with them on a bandwidth per watt ratio, they will continue to abuse their position.

Re: Smartphones with Qualcomm chip secretly send personal data to Qualcomm

#157

Post by JohnFen »

dcow wrote: post #147
JohnFen wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think every major car manufacturer has some kind of remote unlock capability these days - people want an app. Correct. And that (along with everything else related to it) is why I won't own a car that was made too recently.

Replying to both of you, first off which manufacturers let you choose the 3rd party remote access authorized agent? And which won’t machine new keys if you send them a request and your vin or key code. Second, Tesla comms are encrypted. Anyway, if you don't want to use vehicles which communicate with a server then good for you. Really. But if you’re taking such a stance I hope it’s based on informed data and consiste…

> which manufacturers let you choose the 3rd party remote access authorized agent?

None that I'm aware of.

> Tesla comms are encrypted.

Which is very good, but still leaves the problem of Tesla getting the data.

> if you’re taking such a stance I hope it’s based on informed data and consistent principles and not cringy FUD.

I'm taking this stance because the history of the tech industry's practices in this area is full of so much abuse that nobody gets the benefit of the doubt anymore.

> Thats the agreement I have with the manufacturer.

I'm glad that you are comfortable with that level of trust with Tesla (or any car company). I am not. Which is, I suppose, why you'll own a Tesla and I won't.

Re: Smartphones with Qualcomm chip secretly send personal data to Qualcomm

#158

Post by JohnFen »

amelius wrote: post #153
JohnFen wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. This is, in part, why not only won't I ever own a Tesla, but I won't be owning cars that are too new.

> but I won't be owning cars that are too new. Nobody will "own" their car, anyway.

I will, because there is a wealth of used cars that don't have any of that stuff in them.

Re: Smartphones with Qualcomm chip secretly send personal data to Qualcomm

#159

Post by squarefoot »

"The smartphone is a device we entrust with practically all of our secrets."

That is the main problem to me. Manufacturers building spyware into their products is just the consequence resulting from those products being closed paired with being connected, and the manufacturers' ability to get away with it. Putting aside conspiracies, spying people still is a lucrative business, therefore I don't expect any manufacturer to resist that opportunity. It's up to people to educate themselves about the dangers when trusting a device that is closed and goes online.

Re: Smartphones with Qualcomm chip secretly send personal data to Qualcomm

#160

Post by bob1029 »

freedomben wrote: post #21

This seems like much bigger news than it's being received as. Sure, other chip makers do sketchy things, but is that really where we're at in 2023? We're so beaten down by proprietary user-disrespecting hardware/software that we just shrug it off? This makes me mad. I'm so sick of this type of thing. It's a horrible time too because the embedded 5G chips are about to be part of everything , sending telemetry back abo…

The reason some of us have given up on these things may be due to reaching one conclusion or another regarding true motivations & capabilities involved. We all have a finite amount of time to struggle on this planet and picking battles is an important part of living.

For me, this is much broader than some specific technology device. This is about an epic struggle between the "consumer" class and some elite technocratic class.

To quote Ron White:

"And then they squared off with me in the parking lot, and I backed down from the fight, cause I don't know how many of them it would have taken to whip my ass, but I knew how many they were going to use. That's a handy little piece of information, right there."

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