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French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

theguardian.com

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Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#151

Post by kergonath »

toyg wrote: post #45
cm2187 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absence of a strong constitution protecting fundamental rights is also an issue. With a 50%+1 majority, the house of commons can vote pretty much any law it wants with no counterpower.

The British system is, indeed, fundamentally insane, from a technical perspective. They nerfed aristocratic power by neutering the House of Lords, but didn't bother replacing it with some other check or balance, leaving the Commons all-powerful - and with an electoral system that disproportionately favours cohesive ideologic minorities. Ironically, this was largely done by self-declared leftists, who utterly failed t…

> The British system is, indeed, fundamentally insane, from a technical perspective.

The best is the unwritten rules. Which are ironclad and “part of the constitution of this country”, except when they aren’t and get just ignored because it’s convenient. But hey, every couple of years journalists can play fun what-if games tracking down ancient customs and speculate whether a 300 years old precedent could be used to behead the PM or some other nonsense.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#152

Post by psychphysic »

Manuel_D wrote: post #23
phnofive wrote: post #2

The legal system in the UK recognizes several rights against self-incrimination, but there is a carve-out for the per se crime of failing to disclose a key to encrypted information - punishable by years in prison. How is this different than refusing to tell where you've buried the bodies? Why should the police be permitted to assume you're guilty and in possession of vital information under certain circumstances?

And perhaps more importantly, it becomes a de-facto crime to ever forget an encryption key. People forget the passkeys to crypto wallets all the time, losing millions. How can the police effectively prove that someone remembers the passcode? What if someone, after a few months in prison, says they've reconsidered and are willing to comply. They try to decrypt it but fail and subsequently say they the stress of incarc…

It's also troubling that it's a crime not to disclose right now.

Disclosing those keys is probably a serious legal decision. The police will copy your entire phone including any nude pics, saucy messages etc.

Given the absurd number of UK police who have gotten in trouble recently for sharing pictures of dead bodies it's understandable you wouldn't want to just give them forever access to that or take a decent period to fully consider.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#153

Post by psychphysic »

makeitdouble wrote: post #131
1letterunixname wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proper personal data hygiene tips are: 0. Never take your primary personal or work cell phone to any demonstration 1. Cover your face, if you can, or wear anti-facial recognition makeup 2. Do not use social media from primary personal devices 3. Anyone intent on trying to join the cause is a cop. Until proven otherwise, anyone you meet is a cop 4. The standard response to any official questions in the future is t…

The kicker being, there is actually a 6th critical tip: 5. record your interactions with anyone around you, specially cops The number 0 point (not bringing your cell phone) makes it pretty difficult, so you need an everyday phone, and a dedicated "demonstration" phone.

It's pretty pathetic of the French government to be silent on why exactly they flagged him like this.

And presumably did not arrest him on exit!

But I'm afraid since Brexit the UK gov has fallen over itself backwards to look like it's still able to work with EU agencies. It's more valuable to them to overzealously agree than to resist when we had a secure table at the EU table.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#154

Post by psychphysic »

robswc wrote: post #26
SpaceManNabs wrote: post #12

Is this a surprise to anyone? Britain is quite well known for its draconian laws on free speech and encryption.

Seems its quite easy to get arrested for posting stuff online too. I hardly ever agree with the content but scares me to see people getting arrested for what amount to opinions.

Yes, and good luck if you're ever unfortunate enough to be physically harmed.

Even rape victims are demanded to hand over their phone before a case can proceed. Because of course the alleged perpetrator (rightly) refuses to, delete even unrelated stuff before handing over? Case dropped anyways.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#155

Post by psychphysic »

zahma wrote: post #112

Certainly puts the French government and Foreign Ministry in a curious spot. Were they the ones to ask Britain to intervene? What is a publisher doing on a counterterrorism watchlist? Are we to assume the worst that Britain is impinging on freedom of speech or just merely abusing a statute like the US and the Patriot Act? I can see it working well politically for Macron to call for his release as a demonstration of c…

The UK has never really had much in the way of clear civil liberties. And there is a clear pattern now of demanding unfetted access to electronic equipment from victim, alleged perpetrators and anyone they want.

But why is the UK suddenly overzealously engaging with any EU process it can? It's insecurity given Brexit.

Importantly France could have nabbed him on exit or entry. Or requested extradition it did not.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#156

Post by psychphysic »

robocat wrote: post #104
kmlx wrote: post #86

did the french government put that guy on a terrorist list somewhere or what? also, the refusal to share passcodes and subsequent arrest is more common across the world then one would expect: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law in countries such as France, Australia, UK, Ireland, India, South Africa it’s pretty clear: refuse to give password > fine and/or jail. in other countries such as the US, Nether…

> the few arab countries i’ve visited I would expect citizens of Arab countries are treated very differently from visitors .

I'd say visitors are likely treated worse because they expect some rights!

They have the audacity to expect justice so really bring in the government abuse themselves /s

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#157

Post by vintermann »

tristor wrote: post #95
flangola7 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't remain silent then what are you supposed to do to not accidentally incriminate yourself?

This is one of the reasons why other countries outside the US aren't as free as the US, even though the US is a complete mess too in different ways. Freedom of both speech and silence are not really respected in law anywhere outside the US to the extent that they are in the US.

The US laws against self-incriminating aren't unique, and many countries go much further. In Norway, you can't be convicted for lying to police and court at all, if it concerns accusations against you or your closest ones (I think that means your spouse and kids/parents in practice), or if it would cause considerable loss of social reputation or welfare of other kinds.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#158

Post by vintermann »

kergonath wrote: post #5
phnofive wrote: post #2

The legal system in the UK recognizes several rights against self-incrimination, but there is a carve-out for the per se crime of failing to disclose a key to encrypted information - punishable by years in prison. How is this different than refusing to tell where you've buried the bodies? Why should the police be permitted to assume you're guilty and in possession of vital information under certain circumstances?

> How is this different than refusing to tell where you've buried the bodies? They can get away with it because it’s on a computer. The voters don’t care, and the MPs by and large don’t understand. Those who do would love the same principle to apply to the body case as well.

The voters don't know. It has received very little coverage. From what I can see, only Guardian and BBC have covered it, and neither show it on the front page (for me) right now.

Of cases they consider more important are the late Aaron Carter's drug use, a mystery spiral in Alaskan skies, Russian ships accused of spying in Norway, how to combine Ramadan fasting with fitness, potholes in Uganda to name a few.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#159

Post by toyg »

orra wrote: post #61
toyg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The British system is, indeed, fundamentally insane, from a technical perspective. They nerfed aristocratic power by neutering the House of Lords, but didn't bother replacing it with some other check or balance, leaving the Commons all-powerful - and with an electoral system that disproportionately favours cohesive ideologic minorities. Ironically, this was largely done by self-declared leftists, who utterly failed t…

> Ironically, this was largely done by self-declared leftists Eh, the Parliament Act 1911 was passed by a Liberal Government. > who utterly failed to anticipate how fascism could easily manifest through such a system. The Liberal Party, and its successor the Liberal Democrats, has long been in favour of electoral reform.

> Parliament Act 1911 was passed by a Liberal Government

... sustained by Labour MPs, and mostly in order to bust a ironclad Tory majority in the Lords that was effectively "ruining" every progressive bill.

It was then further strengthened in 1949 (Lab) and 1999 (Lab).

I mean, there is no shame in this: it was a worthy and progressive cause to drag a XVIII-century model (kicking and screaming) into modernity. It's just a shame that the execution was fairly poor, particularly in 1999 - when there was a unique chance to build something more theoretically sound, and (unlike 1911) there was a lot of history to learn from.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#160

Post by vintermann »

orra wrote: post #140
blibble wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and the RIP Act was passed by a Labour government (and the Terrorism Act)

Yes, but we were discussing the supremacy of the House of Commons.

I think most of us agree that lack of enough aristocratic rule isn't the source of UK's problems.
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