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Firefox engineers discover a Windows Defender bug that causes high CPU usage

bugzilla.mozilla.org

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Re: Firefox engineers discover a Windows Defender bug that causes high CPU usage

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had always assumed that one application could not touch the memory of another application. Does running as Admin allow breaking this boundary?

Yes. However, I think parent process can gain access to child process memory without admin rights.

All that's generally required is being the same user at the same or higher integrity.

Re: Firefox engineers discover a Windows Defender bug that causes high CPU usage

#152
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had always assumed that one application could not touch the memory of another application. Does running as Admin allow breaking this boundary?

By default, any application's memory can be read and written to by other processes running as the same user, as far as I know. The way to deal with this is to set process security descriptors, but admin can still bypass this. There are protected processes, and protected processes light, but those are not used by most software (mainly anti-malware afaik.) https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/procthread/p...

There are protected processes, and protected processes light, but those are not used by most software (mainly anti-malware afaik.)

...and DRM.

Re: Firefox engineers discover a Windows Defender bug that causes high CPU usage

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I purchased a license of a proper antivirus software Which is that? For years (and come to think of it, this goes back to the 2000's or even 90's), AV / antimalware software comes across as scareware, using tricks to ensure you're afraid of not having it. And second, who here has ever had a virus in the past ten years?

> Which is that? I purchased a license of ESET Internet Security, and full disclosure: back in early 2017, I worked at an ESET-licensed reseller as a Presales and Support Engineer, so I know how to fine-tune it and all the ins and outs. By nature, it's very lightweight (330 Mb RAM footprint), but you can fine-tune it even more if you want. > And second, who here has ever had a virus in the past ten years? We the peop…

By nature, it's very lightweight (330 Mb RAM footprint)

Unless you really mean megabits, 330MB for AV doesn't seem low as I've seen Windows Defender use roughly the same.

Re: Firefox engineers discover a Windows Defender bug that causes high CPU usage

#155
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By default, any application's memory can be read and written to by other processes running as the same user, as far as I know. The way to deal with this is to set process security descriptors, but admin can still bypass this. There are protected processes, and protected processes light, but those are not used by most software (mainly anti-malware afaik.) https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/procthread/p...

There are protected processes, and protected processes light, but those are not used by most software (mainly anti-malware afaik.) ...and DRM.

Although that was definitely the intent, I actually don't know about specific things that use it. I'd love to hear what actually uses it. (I don't think Widevine l3 does, for example.)

Re: Firefox engineers discover a Windows Defender bug that causes high CPU usage

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had always assumed that one application could not touch the memory of another application. Does running as Admin allow breaking this boundary?

cheatengine, wemod, and so on would not be able to work if this were the case. Thankfully those all work, at least up to windows 10!

Or userland debuggers.

Re: Firefox engineers discover a Windows Defender bug that causes high CPU usage

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cringe whenever I see a BSOD or other usage of Windows on appliances in public. There are such better options available.

>There are such better options available. Meh, I see Ubuntu black screens in public appliances as well.

All options are bad.

As a species, we're incapable of making a good operating system.

Re: Firefox engineers discover a Windows Defender bug that causes high CPU usage

#158
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who don't know what they are doing. I think this would describe the majority of computer users. And the majority of computer users are also using Windows. > I haven't needed any form of active virus scanning in something like 15 years Microsoft Defender antivirus was released alongside Windows 8 in 2012. And it's essentially a rewrite of Microsoft Security Essentials which came included starting with Vista. If you…

>Microsoft Defender antivirus was released alongside Windows 8 in 2012. And it's essentially a rewrite of Microsoft Security Essentials which came included starting with Vista. Not quite. Windows Defender was released together with Windows Vista, this was very rudimentary and only handled malware and spyware not unlike Malwarebytes, it did not handle viruses. Microsoft Security Essentials was released standalone some…

The guts are the same across these systems (defender, mse, forefront, etc). They use the same engine but it used to be defender only received antispyware signatures. There are some features on top but basically these are just wrappers around the same platform.

The original team that worked on this was awesome but a bunch of bad managers came over from Exchange and ruined it.

source: worked on this several years ago

Re: Firefox engineers discover a Windows Defender bug that causes high CPU usage

#159
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience (as a former Firefox dev), antivirus / antimalware software are really poorly behaved. They tend to: - require admin rights (which means that if they have vulnerabilities, it can take control of the entire machine, even if Firefox itself is sanboxed); - monkey-patch the Firefox executable in memory, which works (when it does) as long as the version of the software tracks closely the version of Firefo…

I had always assumed that one application could not touch the memory of another application. Does running as Admin allow breaking this boundary?

How you debug then?

Re: Firefox engineers discover a Windows Defender bug that causes high CPU usage

#160
I remember some people reporting that their old PCs with unsupported CPUs got a high CPU usage after installing Windows 11, and I remember some people saying that it was because they lacked TPM, which increased the CPU load. But it turned out to be just a bug, didn’t it? After all, features like memory randomization that require TPM couldn’t be enabled on Windows 11 anyway, and similar CPU usage spikes were seen on Windows 10 as well.
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