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KGB Defector Yuri Bezmenov 1985 Interview – Idealogical Subversion

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Re: KGB Defector Yuri Bezmenov 1985 Interview – Idealogical Subversion

#151

Post by skissane »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #97
nlrtpx wrote: post #87

It is strange how this interview is currently used. Clearly Bezmenov alleges that the subversion tactics were promoting original left-wing causes since the 1960s: He cites Hippie culture, pilgrimages to India, cultural marxism, etc. Basically everything that Reagan did not like. Now the ruling party are Democrats, and apparently the same interview is used to prove current Russian disinformation, i.e. (alleged) right…

"cultural marxism" is a far right antisemitic conspiracy theory that you're referencing (and as a brand new account with one comment)

> "cultural marxism" is a far right antisemitic conspiracy theory

The Frankfurt School was real, not a "conspiracy theory". "Cultural Marxism" was originally used to refer to the Frankfurt School and its intellectual heirs by (left-leaning) academic Trent Schroyer, in his 1973 book The Origins and Development of Critical Theory – long before the term had any currency on the right. And they really have been a significant influence on left-of-centre academia in the humanities and social sciences, which in turn has been a real influence on the broader culture (especially at the somewhat elite level of establishment journalism, NGOs, etc)

Do a lot of people on the right overstate and exaggerate that influence, or offer overly simplistic accounts of it? Yep. But, this "it's a conspiracy theory" meme seems to be responding to that with its exact opposite, intentional understatement and denial.

And "far right antisemitic" seems to be an exercise in guilt-by-association: Are some people who talk about this far-right or antisemitic? Yes. Are they all? No. Is the idea in itself (however true or false it may be), that "the Frankfurt School has had an outsized influence on contemporary progressivism", inherently "far right" or antisemitic? No.

That's not to say I like all this "cultural Marxism" talk – I hate how it treats "Marxism" as a dirty word. It's so cringeworthy when right-wingers (Americans seem especially prone to it) do that. That's not to say I agree with Marxism, or deny that in practice it has caused a lot of mayhem, suffering, evil. But I'd much rather listen to the kind of right-wingers who can see the good in Marxism, even the common ground people on the political right can find with Marxists – I think Compact magazine is a good example of this, which started when two conservative Catholics and a Marxist got together to talk about what they had in common, and ended up founding a magazine to continue that conversation.

But to me, "cultural Marxism is a far right antisemitic conspiracy theory" ends up coming across as just as much a brain-dead talking point as "cultural Marxism" itself so often is.

Re: KGB Defector Yuri Bezmenov 1985 Interview – Idealogical Subversion

#152

Post by lostlogin »

narrator wrote: post #149
lostlogin wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this thing of theirs is supposed to beat the current systems as Mach 10 is fast. It seems to be getting though in Ukraine but I am not an expert and Russia makes all sorts of claims. If it’s weapons work, it would be beating it’s smaller neighbour. https://www.wsj.com/articles/russias-hypersonic-missile-stri...

I think Russia knows that this is a war with NATO for world hegemony and it is going to last a very long time. Maybe a decade or more. Thus, what's the best way to conserve resources and deplete the enemy? Just sit in defensive positions with good logistics and shell while the Ukranians send more and more cannon fodder and the west slowly runs out of armaments. Eventually, they'll send the polish recruits. Then they'…

This is one view, the other is that the Russian military and its supplies have been decimated, it’s military smashed and the west has spent a fraction of a fraction of its reserves and none of its armies.

Do you really think that Russia isn’t trying to advance?

China may come out in the best position, but surely that’s the best that the non western world can hope for?

Re: KGB Defector Yuri Bezmenov 1985 Interview – Idealogical Subversion

#154

Post by narrator »

lostlogin wrote: post #152
narrator wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Russia knows that this is a war with NATO for world hegemony and it is going to last a very long time. Maybe a decade or more. Thus, what's the best way to conserve resources and deplete the enemy? Just sit in defensive positions with good logistics and shell while the Ukranians send more and more cannon fodder and the west slowly runs out of armaments. Eventually, they'll send the polish recruits. Then they'…

This is one view, the other is that the Russian military and its supplies have been decimated, it’s military smashed and the west has spent a fraction of a fraction of its reserves and none of its armies. Do you really think that Russia isn’t trying to advance? China may come out in the best position, but surely that’s the best that the non western world can hope for?

Russia isn't trying to advance. They withdrew in Kherson in an orderly fashion because they believed the supply lines were too vulnerable. The Ruble did not crash vs. the U.S dollar. In fact it strengthened for a while and it's back to its long-term average[1]. Anecdotal reports from inside Russia from average Russians that I read on other forums seem to show that there is not a lot of economic stress.

[1] https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=RUB&view=2Y

Re: KGB Defector Yuri Bezmenov 1985 Interview – Idealogical Subversion

#155

Post by the_af »

twixfel wrote: post #88
phendrenad2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes the classic "everyone who disagrees with me is a shill" (non-)argument. Becoming all to prevalent on HN.

Elsewhere in this thread you say he shouldn't be listened to because he's a defector and would naturally be opposed to the USSR. So you're doing exactly the same thing that you criticise other people for.

You have to be out of your mind to believe HN is full of "FSB shills". Really, that kind of accusation ought to be banned on HN (and in fact, the posting guidelines strongly urge you to avoid them).

Let me reiterate: it's entirely possible for intelligent, honest people who are not "FSB shills" or CCCP agents or North Korean moles to disagree with people here on matters related to Russia, China or North Korea. Or Cuba. Or Venezuela. Or whoever the US is ideologically at war with.

Accusing others of being spies and shills is the stupidest of ad hominem attacks.

PS: defectors, especially Soviet ones, have a poor track record and were very, very unreliable. Some are thought to have been Soviet plants with the goal of triggering paranoia and witch hunts. Others were self-aggrandizing liars.

Re: KGB Defector Yuri Bezmenov 1985 Interview – Idealogical Subversion

#156

Post by zozbot234 »

skissane wrote: post #151
wahnfrieden wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"cultural marxism" is a far right antisemitic conspiracy theory that you're referencing (and as a brand new account with one comment)

> "cultural marxism" is a far right antisemitic conspiracy theory The Frankfurt School was real, not a "conspiracy theory". "Cultural Marxism" was originally used to refer to the Frankfurt School and its intellectual heirs by (left-leaning) academic Trent Schroyer, in his 1973 book The Origins and Development of Critical Theory – long before the term had any currency on the right. And they really have been a signific…

The historical Frankfurt School was quite socially conservative and far from what is now described as "woke". The actual issue with the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory is not that the Frankfurt School somehow didn't exist; it's that they were, quite simply, not involved in the kind of conspiracy that they're sometimes clumsily accused of. Did Western radicals rip off some broad ideas from the Frankfurt School back in the 1960s and 1970s? Of course they did; and "Marx, Mao, Marcuse!" was even a common slogan at the time. But really, the bulk of their idealogical memeplex was coming from Marx and especially Mao (as influenced by Lin Biao and the Gang of Four), whilst they mostly ignored what Marcuse would've said.

Re: KGB Defector Yuri Bezmenov 1985 Interview – Idealogical Subversion

#157

Post by tonymet »

seneca wrote: post #150
tonymet wrote: post #61

A useful tactic for your belief or disbelief is to follow the thread of belief to it's origin and see if you endorse that individual. Many of the pillars of present-day progressivism and conservatism can be traced to a few key philosophers , academics & politicians from the 20s-60s. Those ideologies will become more grounded when you see the kind of person those thoughts came from.

This is literally describing, and endorsing, the ad hominem fallacy. Your point isn't wrong in this case, the roots if modern new-left ideology are unsavory, but that doesn't make it a sound general approach.

From the downvotes I can infer what kind of people you all believe in

Re: KGB Defector Yuri Bezmenov 1985 Interview – Idealogical Subversion

#158

Post by [deleted] »

norwalkbear wrote: post #139
fortuna86 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soviet "political correctness" was about protecting the state from any criticism, American "political correctness" is about understanding systems of oppression from the standpoint of the oppressed. Couldn't be more different.

In 2023, disagree heavily. Political Correctness is a way prevent open conversation and debate. The Biden admin constantly reorients attacks on them as attacks on women or the LGBT community. Political Correctness is used to shut down criticism of the modern American State. Wars are now pitched as femininist, see afghanistan.

[deleted]

Re: KGB Defector Yuri Bezmenov 1985 Interview – Idealogical Subversion

#159

Post by tonymet »

seneca wrote: post #150
tonymet wrote: post #61

A useful tactic for your belief or disbelief is to follow the thread of belief to it's origin and see if you endorse that individual. Many of the pillars of present-day progressivism and conservatism can be traced to a few key philosophers , academics & politicians from the 20s-60s. Those ideologies will become more grounded when you see the kind of person those thoughts came from.

This is literally describing, and endorsing, the ad hominem fallacy. Your point isn't wrong in this case, the roots if modern new-left ideology are unsavory, but that doesn't make it a sound general approach.

It's about belief systems that have been invented by someone. There's no separating the belief from the inventor

Re: KGB Defector Yuri Bezmenov 1985 Interview – Idealogical Subversion

#160

Post by skissane »

zozbot234 wrote: post #156
skissane wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "cultural marxism" is a far right antisemitic conspiracy theory The Frankfurt School was real, not a "conspiracy theory". "Cultural Marxism" was originally used to refer to the Frankfurt School and its intellectual heirs by (left-leaning) academic Trent Schroyer, in his 1973 book The Origins and Development of Critical Theory – long before the term had any currency on the right. And they really have been a signific…

The historical Frankfurt School was quite socially conservative and far from what is now described as "woke". The actual issue with the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory is not that the Frankfurt School somehow didn't exist; it's that they were, quite simply, not involved in the kind of conspiracy that they're sometimes clumsily accused of. Did Western radicals rip off some broad ideas from the Frankfurt School back…

If we want to debate exactly how much influence the Frankfurt School had - that’s the kind of thing about which reasonable people can disagree-although I still think it had greater influence than you do. See https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/just-becaus...

For me, the big issue is that labelling one side of the discussion as a “far right antisemitic conspiracy theory” is not conducive to having a nuanced historical debate about the topic, instead it is an attempt by one side to shut the discussion down. It is true that some voices in the debate verge on the conspiratorial, or are antisemitic - it is wrong to smear everyone on the same side as that though. Zubatov, who I link to above, is writing in a respectable (right-leaning) Jewish magazine, and I’m guessing is quite possibly Jewish himself - he might be wrong, but I don’t think it is fair to accuse him of promoting a “far right antisemitic conspiracy theory”

I do agree a lot of criticisms from the right turn historical left(-ish) thinkers into caricatures - to give a different example, Foucault. While many want to blame him for contemporary “wokeness”, I think if he were still alive today, he’d be far more critical of it than supportive-especially the censoriousness and corporate entanglements of so much of it. While he was unapologetic about his own same-sex sexual desires, at the same time he criticised “homosexuality” as a historically contingent cultural construct-which is a long way from how most of the contemporary LGBT movement views it. All that said, while many on the right are guilty of this, it wouldn’t be fair to say they all are.

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