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Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

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Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#151

Post by piva00 »

lockhouse wrote: post #135
aaomidi wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

220V 50 amps electricity is effectively everywhere. Those large swaths of the country with nothing in them are also places where there’s generally far less traffic.

> Those large swaths of the country with nothing in them are also places where there’s generally far less traffic. Don't those sound like places you'd want to drive something like a pickup truck ? Also, the grid isn't ready for everyone to have electric vehicles using fast chargers. A heat wave takes down the grids of entire states.

Where do most pickup trucks get driven in the USA? I'd guess it's not in the middle of nowhere, at least that wasn't my impression when visiting the USA.

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#152

Post by joshspankit »

basch wrote: post #29
mbgerring wrote: post #9

The financials may not look good right now, but the vehicles are extremely good. They’re already way out in front of the EV truck segment, and the big automakers have a huge gap to make up to reach the same level of quality. I wouldn’t be surprised if they manage to turn this around and become profitable.

You hear this all the time. There is no such thing as a huge lead in automaking. It’s an incredibly clonable product, and each company has huge teams taking apart each others products. It’s also not really the product that matters. It’s service centers, parts, repairs, manufacturing capacity. The traditional companies have entrenched supply chains to get parts, and cars, across the country and into hands. All the new…

What they do have a huge lead on, and which is not clonable, and which is under+appreciated since the lack of it takes a while to affect profits is attention to detail.

They not only put a lot of thought in to their trucks to make them some of the best EV trucks in the world, but if they stay focused they can continue to bring that level of care and attention to all their future vehicles. At that point the cloned features look cheap and are already behind by the time they hit the market. You see this kind of pattern play out all over the place.

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#153

Post by dogma1138 »

basch wrote: post #29
mbgerring wrote: post #9

The financials may not look good right now, but the vehicles are extremely good. They’re already way out in front of the EV truck segment, and the big automakers have a huge gap to make up to reach the same level of quality. I wouldn’t be surprised if they manage to turn this around and become profitable.

You hear this all the time. There is no such thing as a huge lead in automaking. It’s an incredibly clonable product, and each company has huge teams taking apart each others products. It’s also not really the product that matters. It’s service centers, parts, repairs, manufacturing capacity. The traditional companies have entrenched supply chains to get parts, and cars, across the country and into hands. All the new…

I disagree there are two primary leads in the automotive industry manufacturing and supply chain.

These are both hard to build, and require not only a monumental capital investment but also a lot of organizational experience to get right especially around QA and also can easily be a handicap for example established automakers often base their design choices on their existing supply chain and part availability as they often want to maximize part commonality between various models.

That said I do agree that as far as design goes it’s far easier for an established automaker to catch up to a contender than the other way around.

At least if they are willing to give up on some of the optimizations they squeezed out of the process over decades.

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#154

Post by alistairSH »

cassac wrote: post #81
basch wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrecked them how? It’s 22Q4 sales numbers are a quarter of GM. They currently rank in 9th place in production. It’s taken them a decade to get a dealer network built. Their repairs timeline sound just as horrifying as their competitors. https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2023-us-auto-sales-figures-by-...

But their owners love them and the kids love them. If you adjust the market to be just for what they do, electric cars and not all cars, they are indeed wrecking them. It was a segment the ICE car manufacturers mostly ignored and now they have profitable competition where it didn’t exist before. Maybe not wrecked but definitely lold.

But their owners love them and the kids love them.

100% anecdotal, but between service woes, initial quality complaints, and Musk's latest antics, several early adopters I know have sworn off the brand. And I know several people ICE-owners looking for an EV, but not considering Tesla at all for the above reasons.

Seems to me Tesla's only real edge at this point is the SuperCharger network. But, that lead will diminish over time, especially if they open the network to all EVs.

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#155

Post by alistairSH »

gwbas1c wrote: post #101
mbgerring wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they’re not practical replacements for a full size pickup truck (as the F-150 Lightning is). Why not? I’ve done “truck stuff” in a Rivian, like towing a 5 ton car trailer over the Sierra Nevadas. They have the same towing capacity and the Rivian has better battery range. They also cost the same similarly equipped. What’s the issue?

Probably bed size.

Bed lengths for reference... 54" Rivian R1T 54" Ford Maverick 64" Honda Ridgeline 66" F150 Lightning

I own a Ridgeline. The bed is fine for chucking some camping gear, but it's nowhere near long enough for lumber, sheetrock, etc. Mountain bikes don't fit upright, even with the front wheel off.

The Rivian is 17" longer overall than a Maverick and 7" longer than the Honda. It's bed is really small - fine for casual use, but hardly suitable for "working truck stuff". And that's not the market Rivian is targeting, so that's fine.

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#156

Post by alistairSH »

aaomidi wrote: post #99
lockhouse wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the F-150 Lightning isn’t a good replacement for any pickup truck use cases that require towing or going far off the beaten path outside the reach of charging stations. There’s still no EV equivalent of just throwing a couple gas cans in the bed to extend the range. It’s good for typical suburban pickup truck uses though and could be a good farm truck since you could just charge it at home.

Electricity is everywhere. Like. Everywhere. It’s only a matter of time before the charging network expands.

LOL. No it isn't.

I camp in the Appalachians regularly, from DC. There a quite a few spots I can't get to without a 3 hour charging detour (2 hours charge time, 1 hour road detour to get to EV station) on the return leg. And that's for areas that are only 3-4 hours away (one direction). [this was using ABRP and a mid-range Riviant R1T]

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#157

Post by alistairSH »

piva00 wrote: post #151
lockhouse wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those large swaths of the country with nothing in them are also places where there’s generally far less traffic. Don't those sound like places you'd want to drive something like a pickup truck ? Also, the grid isn't ready for everyone to have electric vehicles using fast chargers. A heat wave takes down the grids of entire states.

Where do most pickup trucks get driven in the USA? I'd guess it's not in the middle of nowhere, at least that wasn't my impression when visiting the USA.

You don't have to venture far from the major East Coast cities to get to "nowhere." For example, there are plenty of remote areas in WV (Canaan Valley, Dolly Sods, etc).

If you go camping in those areas, you have to make a 3 hour charging detour on the return leg. There are no public chargers in the nearest towns or on the main road into the area.

If you rent a cabin, you can probably run a charger out the window. Rent a condo at the ski lodge? Not sure, they didn't have chargers a few years ago, but might toady.

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#158

Post by mizzack »

piva00 wrote: post #151
lockhouse wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those large swaths of the country with nothing in them are also places where there’s generally far less traffic. Don't those sound like places you'd want to drive something like a pickup truck ? Also, the grid isn't ready for everyone to have electric vehicles using fast chargers. A heat wave takes down the grids of entire states.

Where do most pickup trucks get driven in the USA? I'd guess it's not in the middle of nowhere, at least that wasn't my impression when visiting the USA.

From a sheer volume perspective you're probably correct, but if you venture out into the less densely populated areas of the country (with more sparse/nonexistent infrastructure) you're more likely to see a truck on a given vehicle encounter. These are the places where electric is a non-starter.

https://www.experian.com/blogs/insights/wp-content/uploads/2...

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#159

Post by tsudounym »

rocket_surgeron wrote: post #119
tsudounym wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a hilariously American comment. Nearly all American cities were built by train networks that existed in the 1800s. These train lines were ripped out to make way for car infrastructure in the mid-1900s, which was designed to segregate neighborhoods and give giant profits to GM. Even famously car-centric LA with their massive freeways once had the best public transit in the world. https://www.segregationbydesign.c…

The first things hip urban europeans do when they can afford it is buy an Audi wagon and move to the suburbs. I worked in Mainz for many years and one of my German coworkers was so happy the day he finally had moved up enough and saved up enough to move out of town. Bought an M5 Wagon and a cute little Haus with a yard and a shed. He was so excited to be able to go to the hardware store to buy garden tools to fill up…

Lol no. All the most desirable suburbs in Japan, South Korea have train access. Who the hell wants to find parking anytime you go to the city for arts and fine dining? Who wants to be at risk for DUIs? Most people in these suburbs cannot afford a driver, thats reserved for the ultra wealthy.

Even in Canada, the most desirable suburbs of Toronto are the "streetcar suburbs". People put a premium on having public transit, because it is easier to get on a train to go enjoy a night out than it is to drive there. If you're a loser that stays home all the time and has no friends, then that's on you.

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#160

Post by rootusrootus »

legitster wrote: post #74

I'm still pretty optimistic on Rivian. Building an auto manufacturer from scratch is pretty up there as one of the hardest/most expensive business challenge that exists. The fact that they have survived through the "burning money" stage to get to the other side at all is pretty powerful. All the examples of car startups that failed only did so because they struggled to drum up sales in their day (DeLorean, Fiskar, Tu…

It seems, though, like they are not at all through the 'burning money' stage. The marginal costs to manufacture appear to still be in the neighborhood of 3x the price of the vehicle. They seem optimistic they can turn that around this year, but promises are easy.
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