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International Security and Estonia 2023

raport.valisluureamet.ee

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Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#151

Post by varjag »

actionfromafar wrote: post #61
varjag wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They had an ample time to get their B1 in Estonian and get full citizenship since 1990. For most it's a choice.

Still, maybe Estonia should cook up a special solution now. I bet some residents who were on the fence before the recent aggression changed their minds now. I understand though it's a tricky real-politik situation. I'm lucky to not live in a country with a border to Russia.

Look, a B1 in native language and culture/history classes are very much the baseline for naturalization all over Europe. The only unique thing about Estonian situation is they provide that opportunity to people who found themselves in the country illegally.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#152

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

qaq wrote: post #109
consumer451 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am well aware of Russian Imperialism. Are you talking about the left and the right in the USA? Who aside from modern US Republicans is giving them a pass?

pretty much everyone on the left too. Outside of Chechen wars I've never seen Russia criticised for it's colonial practices from prominent figures on the left.

Jeremy Corbyn has consistently criticised Putin's aggression since Georgia - far more consistently than anyone else on the Right or the Left in the UK.

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-corbyn-interview-russia-ceas...

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#153

Post by consumer451 »

qaq wrote: post #137
consumer451 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does "the left" give them a pass exactly? Until recently, both Dems and Reps were happy to fund and expand NATO, which is basically and anti-russian expansion org. Now Republicans seem to have an issue with that though. I just don't understand what you mean by "Russia has gotten a pass?"

None in russia's ruling class believes NATO is anti-russia that's a TV talking point for the masses.

The talking point afaik, is that NATO is coming to kill all russians, in Russia.

The goal of NATO is to defend members against invasion. Who tends to invade those nations? Russia. BTW, I am fully in support in NATO.

I think it's fair to say that NATO is an anti-Russian imperialist organization.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#154

Post by duxup »

Invictus0 wrote: post #102
duxup wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Russian elite aren’t the folks who were pushing for the war. Many didn’t think it would even happen / have a clue that it would happen. I think you mistake self preservation in the form of support for a war with the will to start one and continue it. It’s a kleptocracy, most of them just want money. Putins circle is small and most elite had no idea what was going to happen.

People who have plenty of money quickly get bored and seek something stronger: power.

It would be nice of some would… and move out Putin…

I’m no fan of the Russian kleptocracy, but a peaceful one would save a lot of lives. Including a lot of Russian lives.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#155

Post by neoromantique »

dmpk2k wrote: post #146
The_Colonel wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course not, because they are all American vassals. Someone is eating the Russian propaganda here. Projection and all. > However, I hope you can understand why a major power like Russia might be suspicious. It can be as suspicious as it wants, within its borders.

That knee-jerk reply exemplifies why there won't be any negotiations any time soon, and I'm just some random person on the Internet. You need to take a walk, and I'm out too.

That's okay, time for negotiations has long passed.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#156

Post by ceejayoz »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #141
consumer451 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does "the left" give them a pass exactly? Until recently, both Dems and Reps were happy to fund and expand NATO, which is basically and anti-russian expansion org. Now Republicans seem to have an issue with that though. I just don't understand what you mean by "Russia has gotten a pass?"

Chomsky, Greenwald and the lot.

Greenwald ain't left anymore. Hasn't been for a decade now.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#157

Post by somenameforme »

ceejayoz wrote: post #74
dmpk2k wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty. Russia is hardly a paragon of honestly, but from the Russian perspective there are plenty of examples to draw from about Western leaders ignoring agreements. The first and most obvious is this: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017... Then comes the withdrawal from various nuclear treaties, the first being this: https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/12/13/u.s.-exit-from-anti... G…

> The first and most obvious is this... If Russia thinks a verbal assurance from the US SecState to a different country can bind NATO thirty years later as if it were a treaty, they're hopelessly naive. (They're not, of course. They know this is bullshit.)

Der Spiegel had an interesting piece on this where they investigated the various evidence, including previously classified documents: https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nato-s-eastward-e...

Their conclusion is not really deferent to either side's argument. Russia had every reason to believe in what was repeatedly said and implied, while the US had a justification in going against previous promises as the geopolitical scene shifted quite dramatically from when those promises were made.

Beyond this I'd emphasize in that geopolitical relations it's not like there's any law that forces countries need to abide their promises, whether spoken or written. If somehow there were a secret agreement in which the US overtly and explicitly agreed to not expand eastward in conditions identical to what happened, so what? Call on the UN to pass a meaningless resolution which the US would just veto anyhow?

And so in international relations, the perceived trust of a nation is ultimately far more relevant than the formality of an agreement.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#158

Post by blub »

qaq wrote: post #80

I wonder why Russia gets a pass from the left and right on being pretty brutal colonial empire. Even in present day borders Russia is composed of literally hundreds of colonised nations that get exploited and brutalised for the benefit of Moscow.

Can you point to at least one historical analysis which identifies Russia as a colonial empire?

Seeing people draw this parallel was surprising to me, as I associate colonialism with the European conquerors of the world: Portugal, Spain, France, Great Britain, The Netherlands and Germany.

Indeed I’ve gotten this list from a GEO Magazine special issue dedicated to colonialism, showing on a map where each of those countries had their colonies between ~1400 and 1915. OTOH Belgium isn’t directly mentioned, so perhaps the list is not exhaustive.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#159

Post by weberer »

sushzbdbehsh wrote: post #134
pelasaco wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not colonial What a lazy answer! for sure, it is colonial. During the imperial time, during soviet time and now in the east of Ukraine. In all periods, Russia tried to destroy the local population/settlements and tried to build Cossak/Russian defense lines. Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_imperialism

the Soviets liberated those colonised under the tsarists

You call this liberated?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#160

Post by randomname93857 »

O__________O wrote: post #91
luckylion wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They use the term ethnic Russian-speaking minorities , but from those minorities, it's ~89% Russians, ~8% Ukrainians and ~3% Belarusians. Not sure how much Pro-Russia sentiment there is among Ukrainians in Estonia but I'd be surprised if it's significant, so it's really "Russians" in 2023, even if it was broadly "Russian-speaking" in 2014.

At this point even having a Russian speaking population is potentially a liability regardless if they’re pro-Russian or not, since Russia will just spin whatever pro-Estonian or anti-Russian sentiment they say to be propaganda and Russia will just say they obviously need to be liberated so they’re able to express their support for Russia. While only roughly 300,000 to 450,000 of 1.3 million of Estonians have ethnic t…

For context: in USSR a person could not choose to move to live in another area, city or town. that was VERY difficult to do (was possible by marriage). Baltic countries and any close to border areas were especially controlled. But military, KGB and Communist party could appoint people to live in Baltic countries. those were "special" people - that proved their allegiance I can say. That is why they are a challenge to Estonia and other Baltic countries.
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