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D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

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Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#151
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That 39% is for all transit Bus is 19.7% Nationally and 13.6% for WMATA. Nationally in millions, Bus: (Fare Revenues 3,778) / (Operating expenses 16,110.4 + Use of capital funds 3,0444.7) = 19.7%. They also break out Bus Rapid Transit which is much worse 16.1 / (166.1 + 51.7) = 7.4% as is Commuter Bus 57.9 / (597.7 + 170.7) = 7.5% Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority, Bus: $124,011,141 / ( $731,946,008 + $1…

That's a solved problem, don't allow paying on the bus and require them to buy their ticket beforehand.

The driver or buss still needs to verify your ticket.

Compare a line of 20 people all try to get on and swipe a metro card vs a line of 20 people all trying to get on. Even collage busses where all people need to do is show school ID you still get people in line who suddenly can’t find their ID.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#152
post #92

By enforcing a "user pays" model on public transport, we are requiring that the most disadvantaged support their own transport system, which they use to get around to go to jobs to support the wealthy. Meanwhile, the richest people, who are benefitting from the availability and mobility of labour, can afford to move around in luxury vehicles (sometimes driven by others). This is a negative feedback loop which renders…

> If you want to "fund" public transport, you should do it through increased taxation on cars (especially luxury cars) and air travel (in particular private aviation), but ultimately public money doesn't necessarily need to be entirely offset through taxation if it's federally supplied.

I don't think public transport should be entirely free just from both an economic but also ecological POV: despite how much more efficient public transport is on a per-user basis, it's still not free (both environmentally and economically). There's a recent report by a large public transportation company in Germany which illustrates some of the problems: During the pandemic Germany introduced the "€9-ticket", a ticket that, as the name suggests, costs only €9 and gave you public transportation for ~3 Months (Let's call that free for the sake of argument). After the end of that program there was a report by (I think) the state Hesse that looked at how public transportation usage and car usage behaved. The result was that there was massively increased public transportation usage, but not a massive reduction in car usage. In effect (and from personal, anecdotal experience) free public transport lead to an increase in "fun drives" (e.g. to vacation destinations), but not a decrease in work related transportation.

One of the reasons might be that public transport usage is often fundamentally misunderstood. A significant number of people use a car, not because they want to, but because it is their only option: People living in cities already use public transport, while rural areas (and I count everything with For example, despite living in Germany (which overall has good public transportation) I couldn't travel from the close city (~20min drive) home on any weekday past 10:00PM. That is despite the fact I still live in a town of ~20k people. I don't even fault the people that made the decision not to drive busses here: If I drive in that 10:00PM bus, it's consistently half empty (or worse: I've also been in that bus with only 2-3 others, including the driver)!

The solution isn't to tax cars to high heavens, as that decreases the likelihood of people moving outside of cities. Too many people inside cities yields its own share of well-known problems, like high rent prices due to high demand for a, by definition, limited amount of space (density = people/area).

I think the solution for this is much simpler: Specifically subsidize work related transportation by giving people money proportional to the maximal transportation costs (which usually will be a car). This prevents subsidizing "fun drives", while also encouraging people to use public transport when available. This money can be clawed back from employers, which also encourages them to offer e.g. work-from-home (which from both an environmental and congestion POV trumps even public transport). Since transportation is now well supported via taxes, we can use the saved money to increase public transport where it is logical: people living outside of high density areas _should_ use a car because building a public transport system has too high of an environmental overhead (though stuff like ample parking should exist outside of any high density area to allow for a switch from car->public transport)

Stuff like luxury cars or private air travel obviously should also be taxed, but not because it's transportation, but because highly expensive items for the 1% should be taxed in _any_ case (e.g. an idea would be a progressive VAT which is low for cheap items like food, but high for expensive items like private jets).

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>”Are the fees there to actually provide a meaningful portion of the funding, or just to make rich people who don’t use public transit feel like it’s more fair because the poor people don’t get to ride for free?” It is entirely the first reason - mass transit is not cheap and fares help alleviate the burden of the subsidy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

Recovery rates are almost all under 20% in the US, and these numbers don’t even incorporate the cost of selling tickets and ticket enforcement or the costs of the initial builds and expansions (which are almost entirely paid for by the taxpayer).

That’s still a significant amount of money, even though it’s under 20% of the total operating cost. For most of the entries in that article it covers tens of millions of dollars.

I don’t think the cost of issuing tickets and enforcement is that significant compared to how much money collecting fares brings in. It certainly doesn’t seem like something that is done at a loss or something that barely breaks even.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#154
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the car tax idea, but free attracts the destitute and mentally ill. Offer the working poor and looking a transit pass instead.

If free attracts the "destitute and mentally ill", then probably we should be: 1) Not allowing anyone to be destitute and; 2) Also providing free and comprehensive mental health care

Great. Both of those things would make DC much better, I’m glad you have a simple solution to them

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#155
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For people interested - Farebox Recovery Ratios around the world : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio In many parts of the developed world the ratio is 30% plus which can be an enormous amount of money. In Boston fare revenue is 500M . Making things free would cause big issues for many of them as you say.

The calculation is not that simple, though. One expected effect is less car rides, which would require less car infrastructure and maintenance. That would also result in significant savings, car infrastructure is expensive.

Maybe in some holistic view of spending, but that isn't the reality of transit agency budgets. If transit saves DOT $50M, it doesn't go into transit's budget.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#156
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~$2 fares are common in the US and I would not describe that as "free or nominally priced."

Okay, but do an in-kind comparison: can I take a public tram for ~$2 in similarly sized US cities? I can’t think of many; the first that comes to mind is Portland’s MAX, which is $2.50, has a smaller network with longer headways, and services a much larger metropolitan area as justification for its existence.

I agree that some European cities subsidize transit somewhat more than most similar-sized US metros.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a pass that gives actual free travel, or just unlimited travel for a fixed price?

You pay CHF 3860 upfront, and you get a magical card that lets you ride (almost) every train and bus in Switzerland as much as you like for a year.

That's about $11.50/day, including weekends, or $16/biz day. For a commuter, that's $8 each way. That is a pretty substantial fare.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#158
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many European cities have low flat fares and no gates. And yet, they don't encounter the problems LA has. Maybe it's a problem of society and not public transport.

Even if it's due to society, what are you going to do? Burn LA/CA to the ground and rebuild its society and culture to your tastes? The fact is that in the context of LA, fares and gates are needed.

How about we try healthcare and housing? No need to sleep on the bus when you can sleep at home.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#159
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

arguably fuel tax is that fare

If fuel tax is enough why do we keep passing trillion dollar infra bills and allocating majority of it to road repair?

I didn’t say it was enough, I was just pointing out that it’s analogous to a transit fare.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your issue seems to be with funding. Fares are usually quite a small component of transit system’s budgets. We don’t require users of city streets to pay fares to use that transportation infrastructure, with exception of the occasional toll-funded highway/bridge/tunnel, and we spend many many billions of tax dollars more on those than we do on public transit. If free transit is a bad idea so are free city streets.

Not quite true… A few years ago, the district of Columbia decriminalized fare evasion. So many people stopped paying the subway fare that the gap in the budget became very significant on the order of millions of dollars. What you see as a small component of transit systems budgets, they seem to see as a quite significant part of their budget. I think this is going to lead to worst outcomes, and a worse funded system.…

I don’t trust those “lost revenue” figures. What are they based on? My city used to not have fare gates. They made up insane estimates for how much adding fare gates would increase revenue - when the gates went in it ended up costing far more per year than it earned in increased revenue.

And 40 million is not a small number for a person, but for a city with a budget of about 20 billion it’s not a very large number at all - especially when viewed in comparison with spending on roads and bridges. You don’t have to spend billions on another road bridge if everyone is taking the train

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