Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance • Hacker News Board

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#151

Post by youngnerd112 » Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 6:40 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #124

youngnerd112 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely is me....the point is about why as a young male with a not perfectly rational human brain I cant seem to be able to stop myself from developing biases.

You realize that doesn't make it acceptable to harbor prejudices, right? The only reason you're not directly penalized for having them is that they're hard to screen for in job interviews... or were, before you gave the Google crawler trace evidence about one of yours.

The unfounded assumptions that you have made are

a) Most people dont have any prejudices. b) I care about the societal acceptability of my thoughts before thinking them c) One's thoughts should be discarded if they can somehow be negatively viewed in job interviews d) I cannot have my own business and therefore not need anyone to give me a job.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#152

Post by youngnerd112 » Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 6:46 AM UTC

theresaanna wrote: post #114

youngnerd112 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them! Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!

Reworded: I either gravitate toward women who tend to respond to my advances negatively or have some behavior that puts women off. Therefore, I'm sexist and consider most if not all women inferior to men in ways including ability in math, engineering. Because I can't get them to sleep with me. ...What??

Umm no...but let me try to reword what I said in that language:

Although I absolutely agree that it is totally irrational to think of women as inferior in anything , my primate human brain cannot be convinced by reason alone to discard all its biases.Therefore I stand as an example of a young male nerd who as a result of his interactions with the opposite sex is developing negative biases towards them.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#153

Post by youngnerd112 » Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 6:55 AM UTC

roguecoder wrote: post #119

youngnerd112 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me I try....but being a nerd and a racial minority it is hard to keep a straight mind when nine out of ten women look the other way when you try to approach them to start a conversation. I dont think you have been in a situation where "Can I buy you a drink" is replied with a "you're ugly ...go away".

Nope, but I bet she's be in a situation where men expected her to drop everything to make herself sexually available for a stranger. Everyone wants to be seen as desirable, but it is not an entire gender's fault that the specific women you've approached don't respond to your advances. It may seem counter-intuitive, but the best way I've found to get dates is to treat women like interesting people instead of potential…

Although I fully agree with what the advice you are giving me.....I think you are wrongly viewing my motivations being primarily sexual...and the point is that most women do it too!

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#154

Post by youngnerd112 » Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 7:01 AM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #148

youngnerd112 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me I try....but being a nerd and a racial minority it is hard to keep a straight mind when nine out of ten women look the other way when you try to approach them to start a conversation. I dont think you have been in a situation where "Can I buy you a drink" is replied with a "you're ugly ...go away".

While saying such things is really ugly (I don't want to defend such women), maybe it could help you a little to think about the asymmetry in dating. Attractive women get approached all the time, a feeling most men probably can't begin to appreciate. If you are a programmer, compare it to the emails from recruiters you get all the time... There are certainly lots of such emails that I have taken to delete without rep…

yes...but when you get a lot of rejections from recruiters dont you console yourself by saying/fantasizing that one day when you are truly successful you will ignore all recruiters and maybe get one or two out of a job...if you see all the threads on HN about recruiters people are easily biased against recruiters.

We are all human beings with weakly rational brains.Only thing wrong here is that it is not socially acceptable to be biased against women!

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#155

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 7:03 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #124

youngnerd112 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely is me....the point is about why as a young male with a not perfectly rational human brain I cant seem to be able to stop myself from developing biases.

You realize that doesn't make it acceptable to harbor prejudices, right? The only reason you're not directly penalized for having them is that they're hard to screen for in job interviews... or were, before you gave the Google crawler trace evidence about one of yours.

[deleted]

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#156

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 7:06 AM UTC

adrianpike wrote: post #123

youngnerd112 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me I try....but being a nerd and a racial minority it is hard to keep a straight mind when nine out of ten women look the other way when you try to approach them to start a conversation. I dont think you have been in a situation where "Can I buy you a drink" is replied with a "you're ugly ...go away".

I don't know you, so I can only make assumptions and extrapolations from what you've revealed here, but it sounds to me like you're crossing up "let's have a conversation" and "let me buy you a drink so we can go play some horizontal mambo." Now it's totally possible that you just want to chat, but "can I buy you a drink" is often interpreted as the latter. As lots of us on HN trend towards the geekier side of life,…

[deleted]

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#157

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 7:10 AM UTC

adrianpike wrote: post #123

youngnerd112 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me I try....but being a nerd and a racial minority it is hard to keep a straight mind when nine out of ten women look the other way when you try to approach them to start a conversation. I dont think you have been in a situation where "Can I buy you a drink" is replied with a "you're ugly ...go away".

I don't know you, so I can only make assumptions and extrapolations from what you've revealed here, but it sounds to me like you're crossing up "let's have a conversation" and "let me buy you a drink so we can go play some horizontal mambo." Now it's totally possible that you just want to chat, but "can I buy you a drink" is often interpreted as the latter. As lots of us on HN trend towards the geekier side of life,…

[deleted]

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#158

Post by youngnerd112 » Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 7:15 AM UTC

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #118

youngnerd112 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them! Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!

Brutally honest? You're projecting your own personal failings onto all women, and it has absolutely no bearing on this discussion whatsoever. What's more, it will haunt you if you don't deal with it now. Go talk it out, either with a friend or a therapist. The longer you wait, the harder it will be.

>You're projecting your own personal failings onto all women, and it has absolutely no bearing on this discussion whatsoever.

I think like all other people you are missing my point.Please read my other responses on this thread.

But Yes I am certainly a failure so far by all conventional standards......but that does'nt mean I have the magical ability to get rid of all my biases....dealing with them is going to take time and in case of this particular bias ,perhaps a lot of positive experiences of interacting with women.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#159

Post by wlievens » Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 8:47 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #52

cturner wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was told I'd never be a programmer because I didn't get good marks in math and physics, that was sixteen years ago. Let's kill the myth. I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more important to effective programming than being good at chemistry (layers and sequence), biology (complex systems) or languages (building meaning from abstract or incomplete signals). You do not need to be good at late…

I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more importnat to effective programming... I would strongly suspect that just as math and CS ability are correlated, so would math and chemistry. Biology less so, since biology is mostly just memorizing (at least for the first 3-4 years of college). Anyway, I cited math data mainly because it's so widely studied. I get so many downvotes when I discuss this to…

> so would math and chemistry

Anecdotal evidence here: I'm pretty good at math, but failed several chemistry exams in high scool. I just didn't "get" it. Maybe I would be able now, because I'm better at thinking abstractly and systematically than when I was 16, but that would be because I'm a programmer today. For me the correlation definitely doesn't hold. Same goes (to a lesser extent) for biology for me.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#160

Post by wlievens » Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 8:52 AM UTC

youngnerd112 wrote: post #154

Tichy wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While saying such things is really ugly (I don't want to defend such women), maybe it could help you a little to think about the asymmetry in dating. Attractive women get approached all the time, a feeling most men probably can't begin to appreciate. If you are a programmer, compare it to the emails from recruiters you get all the time... There are certainly lots of such emails that I have taken to delete without rep…

yes...but when you get a lot of rejections from recruiters dont you console yourself by saying/fantasizing that one day when you are truly successful you will ignore all recruiters and maybe get one or two out of a job...if you see all the threads on HN about recruiters people are easily biased against recruiters. We are all human beings with weakly rational brains.Only thing wrong here is that it is not socially acc…

He's not talking about rejections from recruiters... he's talking about getting too many crappy recruitment mails.

I get about 5 mails per week pimping some junior job to me that would probably pay 40% less than my current job. I don't reply to these emails because these people haven't done their homework.

The poster above you is saying that maybe that's how attractive women fail...