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I got scammed by a Zelle transfer when someone used my phone (without my authorization). I didn't even know I had Zelle but it's built into the BofA app. I lost $3,000. BofA refused to refund any of the transfer or reverse it. Total trash feature. I didn't sign up for it. I don't want it. BofA signed me up for it. I'm changing banks because of it.
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> irreversible transfer Apparently they're not irreversible...
They're irreversible, except "unauthorized" transactions. Most scammers generate authorized transactions via trickery. Banks won't accept "I was tricked" as "unauthorized"; they only count cases of actual account compromise, and even there... https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/03/business/nightcap-zelle-fraud... > The bank data reviewed by Warren’s office suggest even the bulk of unauthorized cases are going unpaid. For exa…
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I've never recommended Zelle. Tales of their complete lack of customer service, consumer protection, and unwillingness to be held accountable are not new. ACH is archaic (and has its own dangers e.g. pull transactions) but it generally works.
Consumers can't initiate ACHes so it doesn't compete with Venmo/Zelle/etc.
The real reason it doesn't compete is its slow, and many banks have terms of service that say something like "You can only set it up between accounts you own" so sending to other people is often technically a violation of your agreement with a bank.
When my older relatives wanted to send money to family/friends, I used to recommend Zelle, which was better than the never-heard-of-it apps they were considering. But with all the problems I keep hearing about Zelle, they're off the list. Most of them have iPhones and so I just tell them to send cash via Messages/Apple Cash. I don't know how reversible that sort of thing is, in the case of fraud, but as long as they…
I've never recommended Zelle. Tales of their complete lack of customer service, consumer protection, and unwillingness to be held accountable are not new. ACH is archaic (and has its own dangers e.g. pull transactions) but it generally works.
I believe that one of the design considerations between the banks that developed Zelle was specifically to move more liability to the customer for fraudulent transactions.
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By putting the onus on the user to maintain access and security rather than the bank?
I trust my ability to keep a small file (or more realistically: 24 random words that can be committed to memory with some effort) secure more than I trust any corporate entity that treats the penalties for screwing their customers as a mere cost of doing business. Crypto has many failure cases but a generalized loss of all transfers for all wallets is simply not one of them.
In every institution I’ve worked at if you do something that accumulates fines you and your management get fired. Since it’s a small street, you also effectively get blacklisted. They’re also highly influenced by their credit rating and credit spreads for day to day operational financing, which negative reputational events directly impact. Boards are also really unhappy with these situations and C level folks are often fired. I think you understate the consequences, even if the bank itself can afford to pay the fines.
From BofA's website: "Zelle: A safe and easy way to send and receive money fast!"[a] BofA forgot to add: "...unless your account goes into overdraft because we somehow lost your incoming Zelle transfer." Let's hope that BoFA does right by customers. -- [a] https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/mobile-and-onli...
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I trust my ability to keep a small file (or more realistically: 24 random words that can be committed to memory with some effort) secure more than I trust any corporate entity that treats the penalties for screwing their customers as a mere cost of doing business. Crypto has many failure cases but a generalized loss of all transfers for all wallets is simply not one of them.
This isn't a defense of the corporate banking structure. The cognitive load necessary to grok crypto currencies doesn't displace that which is required to utilize existing financial solutions, it's just adds to it. It's also less forgiving and has fewer safe guards or regulations. For most people, crypto is just an added layer of obfuscation and complexity with some speculative gambling sprinkled on top. It benefits…
I have long been terrified of something shaped a bit like this. Here in the US we already treat most workers like absolute garbage. If one day the Average Joe wakes up and finds that all his money is merely some electronic scribbles in a database which have mysteriously gone missing, the social unrest is probably something that most people on this site couldn't even conceptualize of. Today it's Zelle, but what happen…
What a great opportunity it would be to build something new based on things we actually value and not on threats made by dead men:
> This gold thing with my face on it is more valuable than other gold things without my face, and if you disagree I'll kill you.
-- Julius Caesar
... and we've been following that pattern ever since.
I have long been terrified of something shaped a bit like this. Here in the US we already treat most workers like absolute garbage. If one day the Average Joe wakes up and finds that all his money is merely some electronic scribbles in a database which have mysteriously gone missing, the social unrest is probably something that most people on this site couldn't even conceptualize of. Today it's Zelle, but what happen…
Isn’t this what happened during the Great Depression? Exactly what you described except instead of “scribbles in a database” it’s people’s physical money in banks. This is literally where the term “bank run” comes from The depression certainly had unrest, idk how great but it happened in the 1930s so I would expect things would be much worse if something like that were to happen today.
It's not really the same thing as the money suddenly nullified which I think the original commenter is describing. A better analogy might be to say it's like everyone waking up and seeing their 401k suddenly says 0$.