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3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

reuters.com

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Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#151

Post by saiya-jin »

RyanShook wrote: post #27

There are nine thousand known PFAS. They are essential to many products and processes. Many don't have a clear alternative. Other countries will continue to produce them. But 3M is going to ban them all without any discernment. Am I missing something?

No, thats it. What should be the next logical step for any government that actually values lives and health of its population is to gradually/immediately ban products containing them too. If china or india want to drown (and kill) themselves in pfas we unfortunately can't stop them but we should certainly not support it.

I hope 3M will be fined to hell (possible) and responsible managers will rot in jail (unprobable as always). I mean that's sole role of any manager - being responsible for all the crap happening under their command, good or bad. 'I didn't know' is not an excuse when we know 3M knew damn too well and dumped superbad waste anyway.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#152

Post by Retric »

saiya-jin wrote: post #134
mrpopo wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to stop thinking about bringing your own footprint ever closer to zero, you must also stop thinking that doing so is a powerful revolutionary act, and join or create organized groups vowing to bring about social change. Be it in your family, your neighbourhood or your municipality. Forget shorter showers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2TbrtCGbhQ

Yes, unfortunately the core item that more hardcore evangelists for topic XYZ seem to be unable to grasp, maybe due to being too close/deep in the subject. If I had a NFT every time somebody on HN stated 'we need to abandon cars, or abandon plastics altogether' and similar, I would be drowning in a lot of useless tokens. The thing is, the motivation for given topic is always fair and just, and so are the goals, so it…

The secret is to aim for lesser goals. Don’t try to get rid of all plastics just aim to reduce some specific kind of single use plastic etc. Setup an organization to ban cars in the central core of your city.

The advantage to ‘save the whales’ over save every endangered species is it’s much easier to gain traction and you can pick the easiest targets.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#153

Post by rkagerer »

In other words: Competition is shrinking our margins on these, liability exposure is increasing, market growth is forecast to stagnate as customers move to alternatives, and the PR is bad. Good time to make a strategic withdrawal and spin it as environmental stewardship. (Not to say that wasn't a legit factor).

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#154

Post by asenkyr »

beezlewax wrote: post #110
jraby3 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try really hard not to use single use plastic. Especially plastic bags, plastic bottles, etc. This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days but will wait till I get home or to work to drink filtered water out of the tap. I went to Las Vegas about a year ago on a work trip and realized that the hotel I stayed at uses more plastic bottles in an hour than I would use in my lifetime with no though…

You can carry a water bottle in a small backpack or if you're in a city with fountains use them. Or buy water that comes in cartons though I'm not sure it's easy to find these or if they're actually plastic free.

Water (or any other liquid) packed in cartons is mostly just green washing.

Most of the cartons are either lined with plastic, or they are tetra packs. Both of these options (especially tetra packs) are much more difficult to recycle and worse for the environment than simple PET bottles.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#155

Post by iamacyborg »

Gud wrote: post #122
jonasdegendt wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most bottled mineral water is just filtered tap water with some different minerals added to give it flavor.

Tap water is vastly different depending on where it is sourced. In my experience, most countries have pretty bad tap water.

I still think about how good Vancouver tap water is compared to the stuff we get in London.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#156

Post by XorNot »

jraby3 wrote: post #66
runnerup wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that if our universe is actually a simulation, it's one of countless simulations trying to determine a solution to the Tragedy of the Commons. I suspect it's one of the hardest problems to solve in any universe.

I try really hard not to use single use plastic. Especially plastic bags, plastic bottles, etc. This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days but will wait till I get home or to work to drink filtered water out of the tap. I went to Las Vegas about a year ago on a work trip and realized that the hotel I stayed at uses more plastic bottles in an hour than I would use in my lifetime with no though…

Single use plastics literally don't matter if they end up in landfill. The vast majority of plastics in the ocean are coming from about 5 rivers in China. Plastic in a landfill is fine, it's a no-op: oil comes out of the ground, does not get burned into CO2 in the atmosphere and then will go and sit in the ground for several thousand years (or more likely, we'll dig it all back up once energy is cheap enough that it can depolymerized and reused).

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#157

Post by worldsayshi »

concordDance wrote: post #133
worldsayshi wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calculate the hidden cost. Slap a proportional tax on the products that cause the cost. Then split the tax income evenly to the population. Is it really that hard or are we making it hard?

Calculating the hidden cost isn't simple "hard", it's nigh impossible. We've spent billions trying to calculate the externalities of a single gas (CO2) and we're still incredibly uncertain with giant error bars even with a ton of assumptions.

We have some idea. That's monumentally better than having no idea. And not acting on flawed data is still worse than acting.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#158

Post by hypertele-Xii »

jraby3 wrote: post #119
Reason077 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days" Why not carry a reusable water bottle? I have a great double-wall steel bottle (Hydro Flask), which is much better than a plastic bottle because it keeps water cold all day long and is basically indestructible. In most places I travel to it's not difficult to find sources of clean, cold water to refill it. Worst case, I will buy a large bottle of…

It’s definitely a choice. I prefer to travel light even if it means I’ll be thirsty sometimes.

There are some truly tiny and thin metal flasks. Even a little water is surely better than none.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#159

Post by titzer »

runnerup wrote: post #46
DoreenMichele wrote: post #36

3M has been facing a raft of litigation that has prompted the move Generally speaking, toxic substances are only "cheap" due to externalizing many of the costs involved, like increased healthcare costs and lost productivity. If you do a thorough analysis of the costs of using such chemicals, they aren't cheap at all. Maybe someday humans will get that.

I always thought that if our universe is actually a simulation, it's one of countless simulations trying to determine a solution to the Tragedy of the Commons. I suspect it's one of the hardest problems to solve in any universe.

Earth's ecosystems have evolved biodiversity for exactly this reason: to recycle the waste products of life forms at all levels. They've gotten really good at this. There is still geologic evidence of this having gone way, way out of control, like vast limestone deposits, coal, and fossil fuels. Those were the unrecyclable byproducts of the day. Who knows what plastic will look like in the geologic record, but at this point they look destined to be a fine dust that will give future (non-human, likely) geologists a perfect marker of the Holocene.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#160

Post by wongarsu »

jonasdegendt wrote: post #112
wirrbel wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently mail-ordered rice, and because I wanted to buy two different styles I did not opt for the 3kg (like 6 lbs) bag but 2 packs of 1.8kg. Turns out 1.8kg were packed in 3 bags of 600g, so now I have 6 bags at 600g rice, that on first glance look like they are paper, but its actually plastic coated paper. Its really hard to avoid at times. As for avoiding bags I have two wicker baskets like this https://www.amaz…

Most bottled mineral water is just filtered tap water with some different minerals added to give it flavor.

This varies by market. In the US, they just bottle tap water. In Europe this is really unusual, bottled water uses their own wells with different requirements and regulations. For example a stable mineral concentration and taste is very important for mineral water, but of secondary concern for tap water. Also tap water might come from surface water (rivers etc) while mineral water doesn't.
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