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Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

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Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#151
post #74
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dark matter is not a “recursive property of gravity” because it’s not consistent like that, as your own initial objection suggests. The concept of a particle that only interacts via gravity is straightforward. Consider neutrinos, which only interact via gravity and the weak force. Trillions of them pass through your body every second. Take away the weak force interaction and add some mass, and you have a dark matter…

> Naive falsificationism is an almost useless principle at the frontiers of modern physics. We’re long past the days when you could run some simple experiments and come up with a clear yea or nay. That’s living in the 19th century, basically - which admittedly, many people still seem to want to do. To a layman like myself this implies both that the things being studied then are both unprovable and not potentially of…

In science nothing is provable. Things can be falsified but if a hypothesis is true it can actually never be proven. This is because at any point in time and additional observation can be added to your sample that definitively disproves your hypothesis.

All zebras have stripes. is my hypothesis. I observe 100 zebras and I see they have stripes. I see 10 million zebras and I see they have stripes. There is no amount of observations I can make to prove my hypothesis. However if at any point in time I see a zebra with no stripes, I have disproven my hypothesis.

So anything that is in actuality true, is not falsifiable and also un-provable. In short, some statement about our universe can be true, but we can never absolutely know for sure whether that statement is actually true.

Basically your comment isn't logical because you're saying we shouldn't study anything that is true because it's unfalsifiable by definition.

In addition to falsification, Science can make statements that are vague and UN-definitive. Un-definitive claims include causal claims and correlative claims.

Correlation is A and B are casually linked directly or through some other source. A maybe causes B or B maybe causes A or maybe a C is causing A and B. Causation is A and B are directly linked causally. A causes B.

Science can make the two claims above but such claims are made based off of a sample. If the sample is bad or biased the claim is also bad and biased. Given that we live in an unknown universe of which any sample we extract can only be of finite size out of a potentially infinite size it makes both correlative and causative claims un-definitive. The sample can never fully encompass everything. This is the reason why in science, nothing can be proven.

So in short science can definitively falsify things, and in a vague sense it can make statements about correlations and causation. The later two, though undefinitive can be used to say something about some topic of the universe that is true. But it can't say anything definitive and we can never know for sure.

Because Falsification is limited to things that are false, so much of science doesn't actually use it even though it is a definitive metric.

>As I mentioned however, I am seeking opinions here to the contrary of my gut reaction as my gut is often dumb and reactionary.

The GP is kind of the one that's not too bright. You're definitely a layman but you ask the right questions. GP is not a layman and he's suppose to know certain things and not say what he said. He's very opinionated and makes broad statements without addressing nuance. So don't worry about it! You're not dumb!

GP is utterly wrong. Falsification is still used on the frontiers of modern physics, though much of it nowadays is just correlative results, but if one such correlation is shown not to hold at all, it becomes a falsification. In fact, EVERY single experiment in modern physics is an attempt at falsification. And when the falsification fails... a correlative result is presented as the final answer.

But note, even a falsification is not clear in certain cases. This is because our scientific observation tools have limited accuracy. Most of the time we just assume the observation tools are 100% accurate. But at the frontiers of modern physics the observation tools are so bad that the tools themselves yield probabilistic answers. So while in science falsification is still very much used to clearly discard theories, in modern physics, a negative result is not indicative of a clear cut falsification.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#152

Why do people in the comments always ignore that dark matter has way more evidence for it than just galaxy rotation curves (something very well explained in the article)? It's quite tiresome to read the same objections as if physicists somehow hadn't thought of them.

Here. I'll come with a different objection. Everything we see in the Universe outside our own galaxy is static. We don't have enough parallax to actually perceive objects (stars) moving outside our galaxy. Ok, there's an exception, people were able to perceive the movement of one star in one of our satellite galaxies in 2012. That's about it. So, when people talk about galaxy rotation curves, that's based on a sample…

I'm sorry, but misplaced confidence like yours is the tiresome part. I think you should also apply Bayesian thinking to the whole debate as well.

I'm not a cosmologist, but I have a degree in Physics. I won't be able to fill in the details, but all your objections sound pretty basic and unfounded even to my semi-amateur ears. About the cosmic distance ladder (as if parallax were the only way. I guess we don't see Earth's curvature either), about how to propagate errors (literally learnt in the 1st week of Physics. Those bars around the scatter points are literally the error bars, and we propagate them from start to finish). And even about the scientific method itself. No one can claim "there's no potential error anywhere" in anything.

And most importantly, which was my original main point, galaxy rotation curves are not our only evidence.

BTW, I would encourage you to look at how fossils are dated. To me it sounds kind of similar in spirit to how distances are measured in astronomical scales.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#153
post #124

I’m sure physicists have already thought about this but… Has anyone considered modeling the effect currently explained via dark matter as a new kind of force or field? Like a distinct force generated by mass and its relationship to space time? This wouldn’t be modified gravity but a proposal for an entirely new force whose effect is what we currently explain with the “fudge factor” of dark matter. From the rough pict…

"Dark matter" implies a new field. Or rather, a new field or force that affects gravity implies some sort of interaction exactly like a massive particle that interacts only gravitationally. Particles are just localized disturbances in fields (in quantum field theory), and new fields can have such disturbances and thus have particles. In this (trivial) sense, MOND is a type of "dark matter" theory that posits a particle with only gravitational interactions.

Of course we don't have a quantum field theory for gravity, so the above is hand-waving away a HUGE issue of what that new field would be like, how its particles would act, etc, since we don't even know what the quantum gravitational field is like and what its particles are like (assuming such a thing even makes sense).

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#154
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean stellar black holes, right? Primordial black holes could be much smaller, if they exist. I just looked up what would happen in that case, and it sounds really bizarre: > Nevertheless, a PBH would have a notable local impact, Rahvar notes. “The passage of a black hole could melt a cylinder along the interior of the Earth with a radius of almost 10 cm. After a short time, this tunnel would freeze,” he explains…

The issue with that is you're really just talking about another form of dark matter: something else theoretically not impossible but also never observed despite decades of looking...

At least it's never observed in a sense that neutrino was never observed until it was. We just lack powerful enough sensors. The other forms of dark matter were never observed in a sense tachyons were never observed. As in we don't just lack sensors, we lack exact understanding of what we are trying to observe.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with that is you're really just talking about another form of dark matter: something else theoretically not impossible but also never observed despite decades of looking...

At least it's never observed in a sense that neutrino was never observed until it was. We just lack powerful enough sensors. The other forms of dark matter were never observed in a sense tachyons were never observed. As in we don't just lack sensors, we lack exact understanding of what we are trying to observe.

I should point out that primordial black holes are one of the candidates for dark matter. The scientific community seems to be flipflopping about the plausibility of this theory.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#156
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope - they would bounce.

If they bounce then they interact with some force besides gravity

No, I mean they will run through one another and continue in the directions they have flown previously, but now slowing down rather than accelerating, and would repeat that loop endlessly. Particles are point-like, they can't "collide".

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#157
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. Say you had two stationary whatevers of dark matter 1 meter apart alone in the universe. At t=0 they accelerate towards each other. At some time they cross and occupy the exact same point. R becomes 0 and the force becomes infinite. They should be stuck together.

That would make DM collapse in a black hole. I don't think that DM black holes are considered impossible, just not likely.

The key weakness in your comment's parent comment was, "occupy the exact same point".

One might ask why shining a flashlight during broad daylight (or say while doing work around the international space station) doesn't produce black holes. Or why there aren't black holes in the first image at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caustic_(optics)>.

Particle DM is still quantum particles, with Compton and de Broglie wavelengths. A cold milliectronvolt axion has a wavelength on the order of a kilometre. How do you trap a pair of them in a volume comparable to the Schwarzschild radius of about 10^-50 metres?

Additionally, an appreciable mass-energy of dark matter (one you can expect to be described tractably by the Raychaudhuri equations) will be a many-particle system occupying a noncompact volume.

Newton's constant G in SI units is the force in Newtons between two one-kilogram masses at rest with respect to each other at one metre apart. It's small (However, each of the pair of kg-mass blobs of DM particles is not likely to stick around intact that long because (by virtue of them being weakly interacting particles) nothing around them is strong enough to keep them from running away due to thermal motion. They are only cold in the sense they move slowly compared to hot dark matter in the form of relativistic neutrinos; they can still move about at many m/s, which is a lot faster than m/day. Newton's constant is rather small, and rather too tiny when thinking of coaxing a couple kg of CDM into a volume comparable to the Schwarzschild radius of about 10^-27 metres.

One might compare this with two kg-masses of water ice. In a ball of ice various interactions trap molecules within the ball even against sublimation. The ice balls will come into contact in about a day. Thus we can have things like Saturn's rings or periodic comets, helped by the non-gravitational interactions of water ice keeping the mass-energy-momentum from flying away before gravity can do its work.

Indeed, keeping galaxy and galaxy-cluster dark matter halos from flying away puts an upper bound on their temperature (if you heat up the water ice above to a couple hundred kelvins it can sublimate away in minutes). Halo DM needs to be cold in order for it to stick around.

tl;dr, two sets of non-self-interacting (collisionless) dark matter just slide right through each other. cf. the famous Bullet cluster collision. You'd need at least a galaxy worth of dark matter and at least many millions of years of Chandrasekhar dynamical friction (radiating away very low amplitude gravitational waves as structures ("subhalos") form and move through each other) to make a black hole from DM alone.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the amount of DM and it's specific distribution is tuned to match each observation This is simply not true. No cosmological theory tries to explain why each star is in its exact observed location. They try to predict the statistics of galaxies, star formation, etc. If you run a simulation of the universe, beginning with very simple, random initial conditions, and then run physics forward for 13 billion years, you g…

> No cosmological theory tries to explain why each star is in its exact observed location. Nice strawman. > Note that this is not the case for Milgromian theories. So far, no one has managed to create a theory without dark matter that can achieve this. LCDM also fails at this (see Dwarf galaxy problem, for one example), so this is not a point in your favour. > It's just that dark matter is a very simple paradigm that…

> see Dwarf galaxy problem, for one example

I assume you're referring to the "missing satellites problem." This problem is already essentially solved:

1. Newer, more sensitive surveys have detected more Milky Way satellite galaxies.

2. Reionization and supernova feedback quench star formation in small dark matter halos, meaning that the smallest dark matter halos never form galaxies.

> See the review I linked.

I think we've talked about this elsewhere on HN before, and I pointed out that the paper you're linking to gets a lot of things wrong and is published in an obscure journal (presumably because it wouldn't survive peer review at any of the major journals).

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the amount of DM and it's specific distribution is tuned to match each observation This is simply not true. No cosmological theory tries to explain why each star is in its exact observed location. They try to predict the statistics of galaxies, star formation, etc. If you run a simulation of the universe, beginning with very simple, random initial conditions, and then run physics forward for 13 billion years, you g…

> If you run a simulation of the universe, beginning with very simple, random initial conditions, and then run physics forward for 13 billion years, This is actually exactly wrong. If you run LCDM for 13 billion years you don't get galaxies till much later than what we observe via say JWST. However, with MOND you predict early galaxies due to the higher force of gravity at distances causing earlier collapse.

> If you run LCDM for 13 billion years you don't get galaxies till much later than what we observe via say JWST.

I would not take all the recent claims of extremely high-redshift galaxies, found in initial JWST data, at face value. Several of these claims have already been shown to be false.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#160
post #124

I’m sure physicists have already thought about this but… Has anyone considered modeling the effect currently explained via dark matter as a new kind of force or field? Like a distinct force generated by mass and its relationship to space time? This wouldn’t be modified gravity but a proposal for an entirely new force whose effect is what we currently explain with the “fudge factor” of dark matter. From the rough pict…

If the unmodified gravity and this new force always oocur together, why not just call them one force? What is it that makes them "distinct"?

Do we know they always occur together?
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