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Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

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Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#151
post #82

Gore-TEX and other waterproof breathable (WPB) membrane fabrics are ridiculously oversold to people who don't spend much time outside. The amount of breathability they offer is ludicrously low compared to something like unzipping a jacket zipper or pit vent. If you're moving at all, a WPB jacket means that you'll be drenched from the inside due to sweat, and all that water repelled by your jacket ends up on your pant…

You shouldn’t move wearing Gore-TEX in my experience. If you stop and it’s wet you put it on while stopped. You take it off when you start moving again. If you’re moving you’re going to be wet anyway (sweat) so no point trying to stay dry from the outside. Best application is sleeping bag covers. Worst application is boots. Makes no sense.

Gortex works amazing for snowboarding bibs. You do quite a bit of moving in those. You dont need to wrap your entire body in it for it to be effective.

My gortex snowboard jacket has side vents that work great when you need to cool off a bit.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#152
If you want a water resistant fabric with fewer chemical/environmental issues, look into Fjällräven's G-1000 fabric [1]. Instead of using PTFE, it's just a cotton-polyester blend waxed with Greenland wax (which is just beeswax and paraffin).

[1] https://www.fjallraven.com/us/en-us/about/our-materials/g100...

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#153

Andy Skurka has a good writeup on why Gore-Tex is mostly hype: https://andrewskurka.com/why-im-hard-on-gore-tex-the-king-of...

Skurka is of course correct that it’s easy to overwhelm the Gore-Tex membrane when you are working hard and perspiring. But this is not exactly breaking news… there’s a reason pit zips and soft shells were invented. Making a big point of this, sort of feels like shooting fish in a barrel.

Unfortunately if you read his other writing about Gore-Tex (and waterproof breathable membranes in general), it is clear he does not understand how the technology actually works. He refers constantly to ambient humidity, which is irrelevant, and even gets some facts about humidity wrong.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside the issues from waste during the manufacturing process and the messes that have been made (see 3M plants for example), is the actual Gore-tex product itself hazardous? Like, how much of the material do you have to eat, and how edible is the Gore-tex product? I get Teflon coatings scratching and getting mixed with the prepared food, but I typically don't go around gnawing on my clothing. Does Gore-tex le…

Base material for GoreTex is PTFE is implantable so probably pretty safe.

On the other hand all Americans have pfas in their blood so maybe it’s overused

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#155
post #147

I'm fond of cordura its sort of military material and waterproof and a lot of bags i've gotten in japan and taiwan are quite fond of this as well. Its a really strong cloth based design but sort of militaristic. big fan!

Cordura is just a brand name for a particular way of weaving nylon thread into a fabric.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#156
It's interesting that the material turns into a fluffy mostly-air material when pulled hard. There's a long history of materials that suddenly change properties when processed mechanically in an unusual way.

Tungsten: one of the early breakthroughs was when General Electric figured out how to make ductile tungsten wire and coil it. Tungsten powder is compressed into slugs, which are forced through successively smaller dies. At some point, ductility appears. The rods can then be pulled through still smaller dies until very fine wire appears. This is how incandescent light bulbs were made. (Revisionist history of the light bulb: In 1840, Warren de la Rue invented the light bulb. Basic concept: use a coil of thin wire with a very high melting point. He used platinum. Worked fine, cost too much. Then there was a detour through carbonized paper led by Edison. Not as good, but cheaper. Then, in 1905, William Coolidge figured out how to make tungsten ductile. Now de la Rue's approach was affordable. Carbonized paper was abandoned.)

Steel: It's been known since ancient times that you could heat up a piece of iron and punch a hole through it, widening the piece at that point. That concept can be taken to an extreme. Within a narrow temperature range, you can push a piercer through a long steel bar endwise and turn it into a pipe.[1] That's how thick-walled pipe is made.

Food: The Beyond Meat process is more mechanical than chemical. The basic feedstock is peas. The trick that gives it a meaty texture involves extrusion with both steam and cold. The exact process is proprietary but not that complicated.

This is an area where development has historically required either a huge amount of tries or a lucky accident. Which makes one wonder what new tricks can be found that way by hooking up machine learning to hydrodynamic simulation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_piercing

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#157
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Base material for GoreTex is PTFE is implantable so probably pretty safe.

On the other hand all Americans have pfas in their blood so maybe it’s overused

in the 80s on every ski trip, my parents would spray me down with scotch guard while i stood there in my cold gear. think of the scene from A Christmas Story with Randy in his overstuffed coat, but then imagine the mom spraying him down with a can of scotch guard. that was me.

does that count as being overused, or just as intended?

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#158
post #111
post #82

Gore-TEX and other waterproof breathable (WPB) membrane fabrics are ridiculously oversold to people who don't spend much time outside. The amount of breathability they offer is ludicrously low compared to something like unzipping a jacket zipper or pit vent. If you're moving at all, a WPB jacket means that you'll be drenched from the inside due to sweat, and all that water repelled by your jacket ends up on your pant…

I absolutely agree. The breathability of goretex is extremely poor to the point that I consider it a scam. If it's not raining you'll be way more comfortable with plain fabric, especially wool. If it is raining, you'll be just as comfortable in a plastic raincoat (especially polyurethane) with pit zips, and you will stay dry a lot longer in a heavy pour. Gore-tex shells don't breath at all unless you keep up the DWR…

Seems like you’re painting with a very broad brush. Ultralight 3L jackets like the Arc’teryx Alpha SL breath way, way better than a standard rain jacket. I actually A/B tested a standard 2L rain jacket vs the Alpha SL in hard rain while working hard and it was no competition. I was clammy and sweaty in the 2L rain jacket in about 90 seconds. I worked over 30 minutes in the Alpha and never got overly warm, and was totally dry.

When you’re mountaineering, sweat is really bad news. There’s a reason people wear $600 shells instead of $10 ponchos in the mountains.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is good to know. I bought knock-off goretex ski gear because I wanted a very specific style that only exists in a cheap brand (and I mean cheap, like $50 for jacket and pants). I was very surprised at its performance but I’ve only used it a few days so far, so no idea about the longevity.

So you can get USD50 back? Worth the hassle?

No, I could have explained more clearly. I mean it’s good to know there is still value in the goretex brand (quality control, warranty) now that the patent is expired, when making the decision to buy goretex vs. a knockoff.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#160
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not how it causes cancer. Its physical properties are incompatible with human biology.

Yes it is. Asbestos has chelated iron in it that catalyzes free radicals that result in DNA damage. Saying "Its physical properties are incompatible with human biology." is not an actual answer. What physical properties?

They are referring to the way any google search on the health effects of asbestos fibers will show that mechanical irritation causes scarring.
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