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Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

bbc.com

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Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me clarify some points at the risk of sounding like a Modi supporter. Modi had gone though investigations and was acquitted by the Supreme court of India. It was definitely failure of government mechanism and officials but not state sponsored voilence. " The Supreme Court on Friday dismissed allegations of "larger conspiracy" levelled by Zakia Jafri, widow of Congress leader Ehsan Jafri who was killed in the 2002…

How is investigation of Modi by "Supreme court of India" an independent investigation? It is the classic case of "we looked into our wrong doing and found nothing"

While I would never claim the Supreme Court of India is perfect, it is based on the British system and the judiciary is meant to be independent.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#152
post #20

He was not given immunity, he has de-facto immunity due to his position. Imagine if that didn't exist? Biden visits Qatar and gets arrested for dis-respecting their leaders? I can see that all working out. The truth is, I doubt there would be much decent evidence that would hold up in Court. It's like Russians being murdered outside of Russia, "of course" Putin would have had to order it but "of course" wouldn't cut…

>Imagine if that didn't exist? Biden visits Qatar and gets arrested for dis-respecting their leaders? I can see that all working out. I do not have a problem with that. If you want to be part of the civilized world, you have to act civilized. And if Qatar wants to arrest Biden for disrespect, then either Qatar’s leaders will find out what the US spends its military funds on, or US taxpayers will find out how much of…

Not sure that I prefer war to diplomatic immunity.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#153

I really hope the world can accelerate it's adoption of energy sources that will replace oil. They aren't without their own flaws but besides Norway, I can't think of place where oil hasn't corrupted society in some major way.

Just wait until The Saudis figure out that they're a desert, and maybe instead of stupid line cities they should be building solar farms and long-range international transmission lines.

Doubt they’d replace their current weight with that… If what you say becomes technically feasible, there will be plenty of other countries competing with them, including their neighbors and Africa.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#154
post #5

The same happened to Modi, the PM of India, if my memory serves me right. He was banned from entering USA for his deeds, until he turned out to be the head of India. Apparently your only way out is to be the head of your state, if you have done something evil.

This is problematic because one of the underpinnings of western liberalism is the notion of Rule of Law: that, at the end of the day, we are all bound to the same rules.

Right, and one of those rules is "heads of state are exempt from all rules". Otherwise Obama would be getting sued for ordering drone strikes and we can't have that.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#156

I think the headline is a bit misleading. "given" immunity to me implied that there was some deal or something where the US government proactively gave MBS immunity. What happened was the US State Dept determined he had immunity due to his current role as Saudi Arabia PM. Thus, my understanding is that this would be standard diplomatic immunity, no? And if MBS ever stopped being PM he would lose that immunity, as MBS…

I find this obsession with 1 or 4 people obscene while millions are ignored. We invaded Libya and left behind a failed state where millions live amid violent gangs, but we spent more ink about 4 Americans in Benghazi than the millions who were affected by our policies. It's almost like we don't care.

Why do people write far more about Khashoggi, rather than the millions in Yemen?

That should be more than enough reason to not deal with Saudi government. We have sanctioned Russia and its government so much, but not a single one on Saudis. We have called Putin a dictator who falsifies elections and kills people. And yet MBS is not even elected. We don't say "unelected dictator" who "oppresses his own people" or "bombs his enemies".

The situation in Saudi-Yemen is similar in many respects to Russia-Ukraine. In response to a foreign government (USA in Ukraine, Iran in Yemen) encouraging a revolution that overthrew friendlier rulers in the country, they carried on a war with them for years, with no end in sight.

The difference is Saudi Arabia has blockaded Yemen for years, leading to the world's largest preventable humanitarian crisis. Russia did nothing of the sort with Ukraine, they didn't blockade it, in fact they let NATO weapons keep pouring over the border from Poland.

This year, the UN warned of an "outright catastrophe" in Yemen, as millions are facing hunger. Ukraine has lots arable land while Yemen did not.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1113852

But far from sanctioning them, or even spending 1% of the outrage that it does on Russia, the USA instead sends them the very weapons they use to bomb civilians!

This year, investigators showed that the USA supported the majority of airstrikes on Yemenite civilians!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/20...

To quote:

While Russia’s bombings of a maternity hospital and other civilian targets in Ukraine have drawn widespread public indignation as war crimes, thousands of similar strikes have taken place against Yemeni civilians. The indiscriminate bombings have become a hallmark of the Yemen war, drawing international scrutiny of the countries participating in the air campaign, and those arming them, including the United States. U.S. support for the Saudi war effort, which has been criticized by human rights groups and some in Congress, began during the Obama administration and has continued in fits and starts for seven years.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#157
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bad take, as it would make diplomacy a very precarious proposition (whereas its entire purpose is to be weak & non-committal). Diplomatic immunity is nothing new and in fact MBS doesn't even assert conduct-based immunity (he's using the even broader "head of state immunity").

Even if one side is using it to commit egregious criminal acts in the others’ country? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46676200 I do not see how the people of the USA benefit from this arrangement.

[deleted]

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#158
What's interesting in this whole Khashoggi case is not the US response or lack of response. Any other crime committed by the US and KSA will make Khashoggi murder a joke in comparison. What irritates me is that KSA committed and still commit genocide in Yemen since at least 2015 (this is only one place), people are being starved, and no one feel the "ethical burden" to take any action or ask their "free world" leader to take any action or stop helping and leading that war. Yet the sensitive liberals are mad because of Mr. Khashoggi murder, they have the nerve the mention the "ethics" even when they're trying to invoke the geo-political argument (Yes MBS is bad but not as Bad as X while X changes every few years, today it's Putin). The hard and brutal truth is that if you ever voted in US for Trump or Obama or Biden or Bush Or almost any President in the past 50 years, you have more ethical burden than simply worrying about the lack of response against MBS.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#159
post #20

He was not given immunity, he has de-facto immunity due to his position. Imagine if that didn't exist? Biden visits Qatar and gets arrested for dis-respecting their leaders? I can see that all working out. The truth is, I doubt there would be much decent evidence that would hold up in Court. It's like Russians being murdered outside of Russia, "of course" Putin would have had to order it but "of course" wouldn't cut…

>Imagine if that didn't exist? Biden visits Qatar and gets arrested for dis-respecting their leaders? I can see that all working out. I do not have a problem with that. If you want to be part of the civilized world, you have to act civilized. And if Qatar wants to arrest Biden for disrespect, then either Qatar’s leaders will find out what the US spends its military funds on, or US taxpayers will find out how much of…

Almost as short sighted a take as Musk's views on free speech

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your reply is the joke, the Poster comment is making good point, Saddam Hussein & Gadaffi were removed by US war machine. It's just a war that suits the US.

> Saddam Hussein & Gadaffi were removed by US war machine Right. Which is a red herring in a discussion about legal sovereign immunity.

It's not about sovereignty

It's about consequences

Nobody thought they would go to war with SA

they don't have the balls to do it anymore

they did it with Afghanistan for something that Afghanistan did not do. You know, they are poor and have no army.

But most of all, business with SA will continue as usual

After the prince ordered the assassination of a journalist whose body was then shred to pieces with a bonesaw

That qualifies as OK to buy our fighter jets, no big deal

everything's fine...

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