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I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

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Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#151

Post by tharkun__ »

Kirby64 wrote: post #125
breput wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might not burst into flames, today, but these technologies weren't invented because there was no risk. > That would be 30% of your homes total power capacity just for changing EV That's the thing - most people have a 8 to 12 hour window to fully charge their car(s) overnight and when you and your neighbors are using practically no energy. Worst case is there is no active management and there is just a new peak a…

Your recommendation would require updates to the NEC to even be considered. As it stands today, an EV charger (or an outlet designated for EV charging) is considered to be 'in use' 100% of the time from a loading perspective (i.e., when counting how big of a main breaker you need to handle). Which, honestly, makes sense. You can't predict when other loads are being used reliably, and you can use an EV charger for man…

It seems that this 100/200A thing might just be very different across even just North America, nevermind Europe. So much so that we can't make a general statement either way.

As in no, it does not heavily depend on size in general in the way you describe. It may do so where you are but that's about it. My house is smaller than 1700sqft, was built quite some years before 2008 and we have a 200A panel and I don't know what I would do with 100A service. It would be impossible actually. But that might be because we use electric baseboard heating and thus lots of heating circuits with quite a bunch of amps in use by that.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#152

Post by Kirby64 »

tharkun__ wrote: post #151
Kirby64 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your recommendation would require updates to the NEC to even be considered. As it stands today, an EV charger (or an outlet designated for EV charging) is considered to be 'in use' 100% of the time from a loading perspective (i.e., when counting how big of a main breaker you need to handle). Which, honestly, makes sense. You can't predict when other loads are being used reliably, and you can use an EV charger for man…

It seems that this 100/200A thing might just be very different across even just North America, nevermind Europe. So much so that we can't make a general statement either way. As in no, it does not heavily depend on size in general in the way you describe. It may do so where you are but that's about it. My house is smaller than 1700sqft, was built quite some years before 2008 and we have a 200A panel and I don't know…

All houses in this neighborhood use natural gas for heating and stove/oven heating, so they have minimal heating load in the winter in terms of actual electrical consumption, and you get rid of the 50A oven outlet.

In general, electric heat is a bit of a menace in terms of electrical consumption... especially given electric prices lately.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#153

Post by tharkun__ »

Kirby64 wrote: post #152
tharkun__ wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that this 100/200A thing might just be very different across even just North America, nevermind Europe. So much so that we can't make a general statement either way. As in no, it does not heavily depend on size in general in the way you describe. It may do so where you are but that's about it. My house is smaller than 1700sqft, was built quite some years before 2008 and we have a 200A panel and I don't know…

All houses in this neighborhood use natural gas for heating and stove/oven heating, so they have minimal heating load in the winter in terms of actual electrical consumption, and you get rid of the 50A oven outlet. In general, electric heat is a bit of a menace in terms of electrical consumption... especially given electric prices lately.

Which is exactly my point. For your reality the reasons you gave make sense for why 100A may have been standard even in 2008. It does not generalize well to an entire continent or two though.

I live way too far out to have natural gas service and because I have such a small house it has baseboard heating. Most larger houses here have electric furnaces instead. But having 200A service meant I was easily able to add a mini split heat pump taking care of heating most of the time but we have no space to put a furnace instead. We do have propane to heat when power is out (or just if I want the nicety of a roaring fire heating up the room on -40 evenings). The oven is electric too. I was looking at getting a tankless water heater but would need to upgrade the electric service for that apparently because my 200A are not enough in case "everything else is on at the same time" (I personally wouldn't mind the heaters shutting off for 3 minutes while I take a shower but I guess that's against code).

Also electricity prices do not generalize well. Way too much variance across an entire continent or two. What you say is expensive for you actually isn't that expensive here. Now ask someone in Europe this winter what they think about your electricity prices in comparison.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#154

Post by sidewndr46 »

yellowapple wrote: post #119
aynyc wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it would destroy poor-middle class home owners and renters. This year, it's electrical, next year is gas line, the year after is sewer, soon enough, poor-middle class won't be able to afford any homes and rents will go up. This is particular true in larger cities.

Defer code compliance to time of sale/purchase. Basically: if you want to sell it as a house, it has to be up to code, but until then, go hog-wild. Seems like that would solve the issue - and in practice I'm pretty sure that's already the case.

My house is 40 years old. To "bring it up to code" would have one simple step: demolish the whole house. There is no way you will ever economically bring a structure this old up to code.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#155

Post by briHass »

yellowapple wrote: post #119
aynyc wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it would destroy poor-middle class home owners and renters. This year, it's electrical, next year is gas line, the year after is sewer, soon enough, poor-middle class won't be able to afford any homes and rents will go up. This is particular true in larger cities.

Defer code compliance to time of sale/purchase. Basically: if you want to sell it as a house, it has to be up to code, but until then, go hog-wild. Seems like that would solve the issue - and in practice I'm pretty sure that's already the case.

A good amount of modern building code is related to energy efficiency. These standards applying to new construction make sense: it's only a marginal increase in cost to add insulation, use upgraded products, or ensure air-tightness during construction. However, for existing homes, this would be extremely costly. The house would, in many cases, need to be ripped down to the studs on exterior walls and completely reinsulated/sealed, older windows would need to be replaced, HVAC ducts exposed and sealed/insulated, etc.

For an existing structure, the result of all these improvements, even considering rising energy costs, would never pay back over the expected life of the house. Code tries to strike a balance here by enforcing that when it's reasonable to do so (e.g. you tore down to the studs for a remodel anyway), you need to bring the areas modified up to modern-ish standards.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#156

Post by smileysteve »

idiotsecant wrote: post #122
bhhaskin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not necessarily true. It sounds like most of the upgrades are about convenience to the power company. Not anything safety related, which is why older properties are exempt. You also have to remember that it takes a lot of power to be able to change an EV in timely manner. It is easily the number one consumer of energy. Older neighborhoods utilities where never designed to do that.

>It sounds like most of the upgrades are about convenience to the power company. Not anything safety related It's always painful trying to have discussions related to any kind of physical infrastructure on HN because it's absolutely full of people that assume that physical design and maintenance is somehow the trivial, easy part.

This is why American infrastructure is crumbling. People are under the impression that concrete, pipes lasts forever, but it doesn't.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#157

Post by smileysteve »

IndrekR wrote: post #35
natch wrote: post #12

Profanity alert. Don’t read this if you are sensitive. You. Do. Fucking. Not. Need. An EV charger, to charge your EV. A 110 or 220 outlet with a cord and an adapter will work just fine. Apologies for the US centric terminology but I expect the situation is roughly the same (though numbers vary) elsewhere. We did TWO Teslas in an apartment for two years sharing (alternating cars) a single plug of a single 110 outlet.…

If you buy electricity at the (hourly) market rate, you want to charge when it is cheapest and charge reasonably fast. On a typical 11kW home charger here in EU, that means about 6 hours for full charge or 1..2 hours for daily top-up. All the benefits for buying the electricity at hourly demand based rate disappear when full charging times approach 24h. This has two benefits: it is cheaper to charge and the grid work…

> when full charging times approach 24h.

200 miles a day is not the median driving pattern. It's closer to 30 miles

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#158

Post by smileysteve »

foogazi wrote: post #108

> As EVs become more common, more landlords will be driven to invest in vehicle charging. Can EVs become more common without tenants being able to charge them ?

Yes. Gas stations near me are installing fast chargers. ice driving Tenants currently have to go to gas stations.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#159

Post by smileysteve »

zizee wrote: post #23
socialismisok wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, if you are renting out a unit as a landlord, you should be required to keep the property in compliance with code.

Sounds good, but just don't be surprised if this results in more expensive rents, and less affordable housing being built.

the "the house is burning down and firemen will die" discount,

along with

the "oops I dropped the hair dryer in the sink and died without ground faults" discount

Or the "the microwave blew a fuse that killed my work computer, so I lost my job" discount

the "the pilot light doesn't work well, so carbon monoxide" discount.

The "stairwell is only loose here" discount, "the deck is fine for 2 people to stand in that corner" discount

We should have higher standards for "investment" operations than 30 years out of safety standards

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#160

Post by Gigachad »

zizee wrote: post #23
socialismisok wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, if you are renting out a unit as a landlord, you should be required to keep the property in compliance with code.

Sounds good, but just don't be surprised if this results in more expensive rents, and less affordable housing being built.

New built housing already has to comply with the latest codes. Having slightly higher rent is worth it for safety.
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