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Effect of Colonoscopy Screening on Risks of Colorectal Cancer and Related Death

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Re: Effect of Colonoscopy Screening on Risks of Colorectal Cancer and Related Death

#151
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a randomized controlled trial you either find a significant difference in your metrics, or you don't. There's no other option. This is a poor way of thinking about statistics. Whether you reject or not a sharp null hypothesis doesn't give you much information (See for example: https://www.gwern.net/Everything ). Failing to reject in particular, can be compatible with a wide range of effects. >In all cases where…

> With enough data, there could totally have been a tight range around no effect or a small effect. This is not what we got here though. What the trial showed was a small effect with a wide uncertainty on a big sample. We cannot distinguish this from zero. Again, could the observed effect be significant with a larger trial? Sure. But that's always true for a negative result. The objection carries no information.

>could the observed effect be significant with a larger trial? Sure. But that's always true for a negative result.

Sure, this is true, it's one of the reasons why results being significant or not is not very relevant. At some point you want to move towards whether the effect size is in a clinically relevant range or not.

>The objection carries no information.

Inasmuch as something like a confidence interval provides an idea of the range of the effect size, more data does carry more information. I know it's complicated to do this analysis properly with prediction intervals and such, but you have no choice if you want to be able to make good decisions with your data. A wide range estimate that doesn't allow you to make good clinical decisions is not useful.

For clinical purposes, I would even have been more confortable treating an significant but small effect in support of the "let's not test" scenario, than this wide range where the effect could be large and positive or negative on the other side and we just don't know. Significant doesn't automatically mean "do the test" and vice versa. Effect size matters! A non-significant result because of a wide interval just doesn't tell you much useful information.

Re: Effect of Colonoscopy Screening on Risks of Colorectal Cancer and Related Death

#152
I’m quite surprised in 2022 that news coverage is not mentioning the now well-known risks associated with colonoscopies. AIUI they are no longer recommended in the EU for routine screening because of the very high rate of dangerous side effects, on net increasing all cause mortality in the general population.

The article here just looks at cancer mortality, which is not what anyone should care about.

For more recent commentary, an example is https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/why-i-wont-...

Re: Effect of Colonoscopy Screening on Risks of Colorectal Cancer and Related Death

#153
post #68

Years ago I learned that this is the reason why they don't do colonoscopies without good reason in Finland. I asked from a doctor who is a friend why you have regular colonoscopies in the US but not in the Finland and he said "no evidence and colonoscopy has a small risk factor". If you do medicine for profit and are allowed to advertise and market, doing more is always better.

as reported by the article, an impressive 50% reduction of cancer death for those who did colonoscopy. I call that solid evidence which could potentially save millions of real lives.

Not reported, how many people died from side effects of the procedure, such as blood poisoning/infection.

We care about all-cause mortality, not cancer mortality.

Re: Effect of Colonoscopy Screening on Risks of Colorectal Cancer and Related Death

#154

I personally advise everyone to get a colonoscopy. I personally know 4 people who had the procedure and cancer was detected. Some further along than others. All still living. Colonoscopy is one of the few procedures that as they screen they can also take action.

Please be aware that the procedure is not risk-free and there is general concern in the medical community that it does more harm than good in healthy adults.

5/1000 colonoscopy patients have complications (some fatal) which is way higher than the base rate for colon cancer.

It’s not a harmless screen like a mammogram.

Re: Effect of Colonoscopy Screening on Risks of Colorectal Cancer and Related Death

#155
post #3

> When the investigators compared just the 42% of participants in the invited group who actually showed up for a colonoscopy to the control group, they saw about a 30% reduction in colon cancer risk and a 50% reduction in colon cancer death. I’m really confused by this data. First of all, are they testing the efficacy of colonoscopy or the efficacy of inviting people to colonoscopy? And then how is the former group’s…

The gold standard is the invitation. Imagine a study where you try to get one group of people to exercise, and you leave the other alone as a control group. Imagine you find that everyone who actually does the exercise lives much longer. This might be due to the exercise, or it could be that exercise doesn't work but healthier more responsible people followed through with the exercise. And the being healthier and mor…

> The gold standard is the invitation.

I'm not sure what gold standard you are referring to (or the article or the paper - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2208375).

Double blind studies require there to be data. An invitation doesn't speak to the effects of Colonoscopy screening at all, while simultaneously adding a confounding variable about participation. The data is about the effects of offering screenings, not the effect of those screenings, per se.

Lifelong data is the gold standard for questions about mortality and most Colonoscopy randomized trials started around 2010 (hence this very early 10-year study, which I would say is premature).

Re: Effect of Colonoscopy Screening on Risks of Colorectal Cancer and Related Death

#156
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American health insurance really screws the pooch here. If you go for a colonoscopy without a previous fecal testing, it is a diagnostic procedure that is fully covered by your insurance without triggering deductible and copay. However, if you go for fecal testing first and then they find something suspicious that warrants a colonoscopy, it is no linger considered diagnostic (you have a legitimate problem now) and de…

You are complaining about the rare situation where someone gets fecal scanning first (and I agree this leads to perverse incentives)... But here's what the real racket is... American healthcare considers the colonoscopy preventative so the exam is covered... but if they see even a single polyp and decide to cut it off to get checked whether it is benign or not, that is not preventative but is diagnostic and thus is n…

They aren't supposed to do this - See the link I posted on a sibling comment

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/colon-rectal-cancer/detection-...

>Soon after the ACA became law, some insurance companies considered a colonoscopy to no longer be just a ‘screening’ test if a polyp was removed during the procedure. It would then be a ‘diagnostic’ test, and would therefore be subject to co-pays and deductibles. However, the US Department of Health and Human Services has clarified that removal of a polyp is an integral part of a screening colonoscopy, and therefore patients with private insurance should not have to pay out-of-pocket for it (although this does not apply to Medicare, as discussed below).

Re: Effect of Colonoscopy Screening on Risks of Colorectal Cancer and Related Death

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh. I didn’t see that in my exam. They did a biopsy on one polyp, but I wasn’t charged for it.

Hope results were of the non-worrisome kind!

Nah, it all sounded really standard. I think 45 is a bit too young for the test, but it wasn't a bad experience at all besides getting completely hammered by the laxative. Next time I'll ask for anti-nausea medication.

Re: Effect of Colonoscopy Screening on Risks of Colorectal Cancer and Related Death

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gold standard is the invitation. Imagine a study where you try to get one group of people to exercise, and you leave the other alone as a control group. Imagine you find that everyone who actually does the exercise lives much longer. This might be due to the exercise, or it could be that exercise doesn't work but healthier more responsible people followed through with the exercise. And the being healthier and mor…

> The gold standard is the invitation. I'm not sure what gold standard you are referring to (or the article or the paper - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2208375 ). Double blind studies require there to be data. An invitation doesn't speak to the effects of Colonoscopy screening at all, while simultaneously adding a confounding variable about participation. The data is about the effects of offering scree…

Participation is a confounding variable if you compare the subset of invitation group that participated with the control group instead of the invitation to the control group. That's the whole reason they use intent to treat.

Lifelong correlational data is not the gold standard for questions about mortality. It's intent to treat RCTs.

Re: Effect of Colonoscopy Screening on Risks of Colorectal Cancer and Related Death

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be a goal? First you'd need to show that colonoscopies were helpful in general, or that invitations were going to a subpopulation in which colonoscopies were helpful.

If colonoscopies are helpful to avoid negative outcomes, but invitations to colonoscopies are not, looking into making invitations better seems like an obvious play to me.

The problem is you can't run a study on colonoscopies that doesn't involve an invitation without forcing people to get a colonoscopy at gun point. Which would both be illegal and never pass an IRB.

Re: Effect of Colonoscopy Screening on Risks of Colorectal Cancer and Related Death

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that is a useful discussion. The more I think about the study (the article covering it is just sh*), the more I think it would have been better to compare how many people had an actual colonoscopy between the two groups, compare everything that was compared between a) people with invite who did show up and those without invite that showed up b) people with invite who didn't show up vs. those without invite who di…

[removed - beating a dead horse] The whole study is about the usefulness of regular colonoscopies as a tool to reduce mortality in the general population, and the surprise comes from the already known "usefulness of colonoscopies in increasing survivability, early detection and decreasing probability of colon cancer" not leading to a decrease in overall death rate. See the other comments in this thread about the inte…

I think people need to understand that colorectal cancer isn't one thing. There are a range of cancers that occur in the colorectal system.

Finding a cancer earlier (in terms of staging) is probably a good thing. But finding a cancer earlier (in terms of age of the patient) possibly means they have a harder to treat, more aggressive, cancer. This might be why there's diminishing returns on population screening in younger people. Older people have easier to treat cancers and pre-cancerous polyps.

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