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Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

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Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#151

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

em-bee wrote: post #79
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not true that in Austria you can be terminated for any reason at all. There are protections in place. Not true at all what you claim about Austria. There are zero protections in place for workers here unless you're over 50 or work at a place with a union (worker's council) that will fight for you. If you work for a small tech company you have no protections against unfair dismissal. Basically your boss can tell you…

you seem to mix up something. termination with advance notice is a normal process and pretty much always possible. i doubt there is any country in the world where you can't terminate employees with sufficient advance notice. the periods for advance notice differ but the process is otherwise the same in austria or in germany for example. and i am pretty sure most EU countries are similar. i only heard about france hav…

>termination with advance notice is a normal process and pretty much always possible. i doubt there is any country in the world where you can't terminate employees with sufficient advance notice

I think you are misunderstanding. Unlike Austria, in most others EU countries you can't terminate employees, even with notice, without providing a reason.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#152

Post by s1artibartfast »

ashaikh wrote: post #140
s1artibartfast wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the article meant teleworking

The article mentions he was a remote worker up front. I think his job was telemarketing.

I wonder if they were a remote sales or marketing rep.

I'm not sure why a software development Company would have an employee doing telemarketing, at least not the unsolicited direct to consumer type we use the term for in the US. Maybe this is a connotation issue.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#153

Post by [deleted] »

nraynaud wrote: post #30
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #3

>there was no urgent reason given to justify the immediate dismissal given.” He alleged that the termination was disproportionate Damn sweet. I wish we had such great employee protection laws in Austria, where the company/employer can terminate your employment relationship without any reason at all. >Less than a week after the plaintiff was fired, the Rijswijk branch of Chetu Inc. was deregistered from the Chamber of…

Plus you can always fire anyone for any reason in the EU, just give them enough money to stomach it.

[deleted]

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#154

Post by thelittleone »

lloydatkinson wrote: post #139
blub wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIPs are a tool for managing out employees that don’t perform well or don’t yield to often abusive company demands like e.g. overtime or pissed of somebody in management or connected to management.

I’ve never ever ever seen a PIP used in a positive way. It’s almost always been a way for petty toxic management that resented an employee not tolerating an abusive environment.

I got asked if I'd be willing to take a guy on pip onto my team. The guy was senior to me when I started but he languished a bit so I was now senior. He was good technically but terrible with internal politics. It was a bit of an adjustment but we worked hard and managed a turn around. He was surprised and thankful for the genuine interest in his career and well being. He never became an A player, but he stayed on a few more years and stock splits and we remain in contact 15 years later.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#155

Post by phpisthebest »

trevvr wrote: post #143
phpisthebest wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>(we get 1 year for 80% pay, first 6 months full pay, then 5 years protection against dismissal) That is just crazy.... I would hate to be a chidless person in your country, I can not image the extra amount of work that get places on people that do not have children... As someone that will never have a child I like the fact that the US does not force this kind of parental leave on employers, I know that will be very…

That is not a hot take my friend? Do you pay your taxes? Sales taxes? Does the company you work for pay their taxes? Do you intend on retiring with a pension at some point? Rising tides and boats comes to mind.

Well now we are going to get into more unpopular hot takes, because IMO income based taxation is theft....

I do not plain on retiring, and if I did I do not expect government social security (I am in the US) will be there to fund it so I do have a private retirement account that currently the US Monetary policy and government regulations/spending is doing its level best to destroy

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#156

Post by apurtbapurt »

01acheru wrote: post #31
philipwhiuk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, insubordination is a very common term in employment law.

It depends on where you live, at least in Europe most people would find the word inappropriate. For us here "disobedience" or something alike would be a better term.

I disagree (and am European, and a union rep for many years). Subordination is what I expect from an employee and obedience from a dog.

Subordination is a role you opt into. Obedience is something you can't get away from.

You take a job as mailman and then you are a subordinate to the postmaster. Refusing to carry out sensible and appropriate orders (without a valid reason) is insubordination and grounds for being fired (more or less) on the spot, even in Scandinavia.

What counts as an appropriate order and a valid ground for refusal is probably very different in different regions/countries/states, but the basic dynamic is not.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#157

Post by licebmi__at__ »

ineedasername wrote: post #80

he was ordered to take part in a virtual training period called a "Corrective Action Program." This is the sort of name given to processes uses when an employee is already performing below expectations. (Where I work it’s a more euphemistic Performance Improvement). If that’s the case here then his firing was a bit less sudden than it appears. Though the entire monitoring process seems draconian regardless.

Well, I worked on a company with a performance program (I can really remember the exact euphemism), in which all new employees were supposed to take part when joining, and then if marked as low performer go through it again, with a neat addition... random employees were also selected to go through it again just because.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#158

Post by toomuchtodo »

thelittleone wrote: post #154
lloydatkinson wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve never ever ever seen a PIP used in a positive way. It’s almost always been a way for petty toxic management that resented an employee not tolerating an abusive environment.

I got asked if I'd be willing to take a guy on pip onto my team. The guy was senior to me when I started but he languished a bit so I was now senior. He was good technically but terrible with internal politics. It was a bit of an adjustment but we worked hard and managed a turn around. He was surprised and thankful for the genuine interest in his career and well being. He never became an A player, but he stayed on a…

Thanks for being a decent human. In my experience, such is more rare than you would think.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#159

Post by hnaccount_rng »

phpisthebest wrote: post #141
bbbobbb wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry what extra work? you know the company is able to hire more people right?

You know companies have budgets right? you can not just "hire more people" and remain profitable, no profit no company. Companies are not charities created to employ people. So sure if only 1 person is off on leave most likely another person could be hired But 5 years of protected leave..... What percentage of the work force is going to be out on that? Also since it is very hard to terminate someone in the EU, what h…

You are misunderstanding what the 5 years is: it’s a protection against being fired. You know as retaliation against actually having priorities that trump your employers emergency-through-incompetence-while-planning.

The actual leave time is typically around a year. Which is roughly where you can give children over without them crying. But yeah the workload of that parent will have to be picked up by additional staff

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#160

Post by flippinburgers »

phpisthebest wrote: post #141
bbbobbb wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry what extra work? you know the company is able to hire more people right?

You know companies have budgets right? you can not just "hire more people" and remain profitable, no profit no company. Companies are not charities created to employ people. So sure if only 1 person is off on leave most likely another person could be hired But 5 years of protected leave..... What percentage of the work force is going to be out on that? Also since it is very hard to terminate someone in the EU, what h…

Not five years of leave. Five years of protection that one wont be fired due to having taken leave is the way I read it.

Also in the system I work under, all employees pay a government tax that is used to pay for the parental leave. That is, the money isn't coming out of the companies pocket, but coming out of a national bucket designated for the purpose. The company pays nothing when the employee is taking this time.

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