Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back • Hacker News Board

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#151

Post by Huh1337 » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 8:29 AM UTC

sdenton4 wrote: post #110

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right vis-a-vis sanctions and ( based on what I understand ) Monero at this time. I think the reason this is not a killswitch parent is referring to is that there is just too much money on the line for the government. LEOs are apparently still trying to figure out how do it right. Last bigger conference I was a part of representative discussed some of the less appreciated logistics ( for example, you can't se…

Selling a giant pile of Bitcoin and tanking the price is a feature, not a bug...

That may be your personal opinion but meanwhile governments are actually supporting using Bitcoin, not trying to destroy it.

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#152

Post by raverbashing » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 8:35 AM UTC

cyphertruck wrote: post #122

FormerBandmate wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's simple, like all crypto newbies this prosecutor has just learned: Not your keys, not your coins. The US government can throw your ass in prison for the rest of your life so yes, it is their coins. This is the basis of all government power and in a lot of cases, like this, it's good

Ah the old “violence makes it moral” argument. The government cannot do those things under the law, but only by violating the laws. Problem is they have done it so much you think its not only legal, but moral! Innocent until proven guilty.

> The government cannot do those things under the law, but only by violating the laws.

They can and they do

Feel free to explain to your lawyer how you're digging your own hole even further

Then we're supposed to hear sob stories about people who thought it was "just a prank" and got in serious trouble because they didn't know when to stop?

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#153

Post by hef19898 » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 8:38 AM UTC

drdeca wrote: post #147

hef19898 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how exactly is Iran a democratic society? I think I made a point about totalitarian regimes being different in the way the legitimize that monopoly and use it.

They didn't say it was? They were contradicting your claim that the state having a monopoly on violence is limited to democratic states.

A claim I never made, at least I hope I never did.

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#154

Post by cortic » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 8:38 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74

vikingerik wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means the feds didn't actually seize anything. A copy of the wallet without the passphrase is nothing. If the feds don't have the keys, they don't have the coins. It sounds like Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy - the feds declared "I seize Bitcoin" but nothing happened.

> Which means the feds didn't actually seize anything Seizure is tied to possession, a legal concept [1]. Not control. Courts commonly authorize the seizure assets not yet under the government's physical control. (I agree the terminology is misleading.) [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/seizure

So when i read that a suspect was seized by police; They might have just recovered a picture of the person..? But then the real person can't change addresses as they would be charged with escaping from police custody..

Doesn't seem right.

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#155

Post by yieldcrv » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 8:53 AM UTC

raspberry1337 wrote: post #149

yieldcrv wrote: post #12

If you find yourself in the similar situation, use RenVM to get your bitcoin over to an EVM (Ethereum Virtual Machine, many networks use EVMs now), then you have many more options. You can still use Tornado cash. You can still withdraw from Tornado cash to new addresses. You can use those funds in those new addresses to buy and pump the price of the the smallcap tokens you already owned with your salary money. Decent…

Does pumping really work when the whole market is crashing?

in what I described, you can control this

the liquidity pool is the market

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#156

Post by tomohawk » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 8:56 AM UTC

iudqnolq wrote: post #148

cyphertruck wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government had bo legal right to the bitcoin. Innocent until proven guilty, means the government stole the bitcoin in a criminal attempt to deny him an adequate defense. You can’t “steal” your own property. The government agents involved are all felons under 18 U.S. Code § 241. Conspiracy against rights - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/241 and 18 U.S. Code § 242. Deprivation of rights under color of law -…

As I understand it your (incorrect) reading of 241 is that when the government securely holds your property pending the final outcome of your trial that violates the clause of 241 that forbids a conspiracy to "injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person". If that was true detaining a person would be a much more serious violation than detaining your property. Now I happen to believe that pretrial detention is…

On the other hand, feds routinely seize defendants assets to prevent them from being able to pay for robust legal defense. Those assets aren't going to harm anyone, so the case for seizing them is much weaker than holding someone accused of violence in jail. In this specific case, the assets are alleged ill-gotten gains, but often that is not the case at all.

It doesn't seem to be a stretch that the feds "securely holding your property" does not cause injury when it interferes with your right to legal representation.

After all, posession is 9/10ths of the law. If the feds are holding it, its not really yours at that time.

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#157

Post by yieldcrv » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 8:58 AM UTC

nullc wrote: post #141

yieldcrv wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for your contributions to the space the capital will not be controlled and the government will have to find new tools to “promote a change of behavior” as they delightfully put it anyway, I’m all for walking away from the dirty funds that are stuck with the illiquid token, but even bigger fun to be had if the other 75% of the market buys into your token just because the price rallies so hard, then your tornado…

It's a thing, for sure, and something that a lot of people would like to hide. I don't understand why you sound so -- proud? about it. Even if we ignore that the laundering is only sometimes ethically neutral the people being scammed into buying the illiquid assets due to the deceptive cover are getting defrauded. This brings the whole ecosystem into ill-repute.

it bothers me seeing the government get rugged by an amateur, when everyone else gets rugged in a very routine and unceremonious way

funds accosted, dumped into Tornado cash, the end. thats the whole story.

we don't know what happens on the other side, we don't know when funds are taken out to the other side. that should have been what happened in this case. Gary should have looked like a lucky crypto speculator that paid tax on a long term capital gain. There were hundreds of thousands (maybe) of people with that tax profile that year. Wow so early in Sol Shiba Inu NFTs such gains.

The spice must flow. Would prefer the next person had the general knowledge.

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#158

Post by throw101010 » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 8:58 AM UTC

ArnoVW wrote: post #123

bigiain wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they'd seized a safe that contained a note saying where the money/Bitcoin were hidden, but they didn't have the combination to the safe, and they didn't know if anybody else had a copy of the note. Calling those "seized bitcoins" is definitely stretching the truth in my opinion. And the Government,ent/prosecution knew this - from the article: "As a backup, Trezor hardware wallets can generate a “seed phrase,” a co…

Seizing is a legal construct. It's not "I'm grabbing hold" seizing. It's the "I've had a judge validate that legally I am now the owner" variant.

Seems like this legal construct is very inefficient at "seizing" bitcoins.

Bitcoin is a bearer asset like no other. A house, cash, your gold stash, etc., when "seized", can be used by the state without consulting you once you are put in a hole (rightfully or not).

The state has to adapt to this kind of new asset. The closest that existed before was burying your tangible assets somewhere without anybody knowing about it. But this is just not feasible for many assets obviously, and still very cumbersome when you want to use them. With Bitcoin you just need to generate private keys offline properly to achieve the same purpose.

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#159

Post by DonHopkins » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 8:59 AM UTC

cyphertruck wrote: post #121

jonas21 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, those are the reporter's words, not the prosecutor's. If you read the indictment [1], the word "remotely" never appears, and it's pretty clear the prosecutors understand how Bitcoin works. If anyone's clueless here, it's Gary Harmon, who showed up at his brother's court hearing, learned that the government had not yet secured the Bitcoin that it legally had a right to, then almost immediately moved that Bitcoin t…

Government had bo legal right to the bitcoin. Innocent until proven guilty, means the government stole the bitcoin in a criminal attempt to deny him an adequate defense. You can’t “steal” your own property. The government agents involved are all felons under 18 U.S. Code § 241. Conspiracy against rights - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/241 and 18 U.S. Code § 242. Deprivation of rights under color of law -…

Hey Trump is looking for a lawyer who will tell him just that. No qualifications necessary (or desirable) except that you just tell him everything he wants to hear, and trust he won't decide not to pay you, lie to you expecting you to repeat it in court, throw you under the bus, say racist shit about your wife, then send an angry mob of confederate surrender flag wielding MAGA mouth breathers to burn your house down. Give him a call, he'll be pleased to her from you! Have fun.

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#160

Post by ngcc_hk » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 9:07 AM UTC

muricula wrote: post #150

hef19898 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how exactly is Iran a democratic society? I think I made a point about totalitarian regimes being different in the way the legitimize that monopoly and use it.

Iran gets trotted out as a strawman in these arguments, but its government is really quite democratic compared to many US allies which have the mere trappings of democracy painted on a dictatorship. Iran has an elected president, and a parliament and multiple parties. As I understand it, the biggest issue with the government as a functioning democracy is that the unelected supreme council can prevent candidates from…

It is not a spectrum. USA and eu might be. But if someone above you can prevent your from running or electing then it is NOT democracy.

Once you are free to do so then may I say no one promise heaven on earth. It is bad human and good in democracy. Sort it out. It is hard. But it is not the same as other sort it out for you.