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Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

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Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#151

Post by weberer »

speeder wrote: post #47
n3storm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot find any search result that slightly or strongly support your claim that "Brave browser creator was banned from Mozilla". Any links?

I think he is referring to the massive fallout after Brendan Eich (one of the founders of Mozilla and now founder of Brave) donated some money to a socially conservative political campaign (I forgot what one). Brendan "quit" Mozilla, but many people consider that he was kinda forced to quit.

It was the 2008 California Proposition 8 which banned same-sex marriage. Its worth noting at the time that 52% of Californians agreed with him and 48% were against. It wasn't until 2014 when he was cancelled for it and people were calling it an "extreme" position.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_California_Proposition_8

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#152

Post by dingdong123 »

esperent wrote: post #90
FeepingCreature wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The email reprinted in that PDF makes me irrationally angry to read. I hope there's an ebuild for Betterbird soon, because after reading that I'm not sure I want anything to do with Thunderbird anymore. Quote: > * No interaction with any of the people involved. This includes > o No interactions with Thunderbird community members, paid contributors, and Thunderbird Council members. > o No interactions in any official…

I was in the unfortunate position of having to ban someone from an online tech support forum of which I was the mod. This was after weeks of myself and other mods trying to resolve the issues with them. Issues like name calling, trying to stir up racial issues, making fun of new users for being noobs, trying to stir up other users against the mods, all that teenage BS (although the person was in their 20s or 30s). Th…

Having such a rule won't actually guarantee people, who are already breaking your rules to begin with, will honor them. You're still going to have to block them, exactly the same situation as if you didn't have that rule.

Having such rules is essentially pointless. The people you want to shun won't listen to your silly rules, and everyone else will just be weirded out by your authoritarian community.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#153

Post by dingdong123 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #66
FeepingCreature wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The email reprinted in that PDF makes me irrationally angry to read. I hope there's an ebuild for Betterbird soon, because after reading that I'm not sure I want anything to do with Thunderbird anymore. Quote: > * No interaction with any of the people involved. This includes > o No interactions with Thunderbird community members, paid contributors, and Thunderbird Council members. > o No interactions in any official…

What else do you do with someone who is relentlessly rude?

You ignore them, or ban them from communities that you control. You don't try to expand your scope of influence and force other people to do so as well, leave that decision to them!

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#154

Post by pneumatic1 »

llanowarelves wrote: post #21

Does anyone know how to have a portable setup (all email IMAP preconfigured + settings) in either Thunderbird or Betterbird? So I can let Dropbox/something sync or symlink and hop between computers.

Yea this is possible. I can’t remember exactly how but I installed Dropbox on both computers and put the Thunderbird profile in there. Iirc the profile directory was getting conflicting writes from each computer. But it ended up working somehow.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#155

Post by friendzis »

rtpg wrote: post #62
FeepingCreature wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The email reprinted in that PDF makes me irrationally angry to read. I hope there's an ebuild for Betterbird soon, because after reading that I'm not sure I want anything to do with Thunderbird anymore. Quote: > * No interaction with any of the people involved. This includes > o No interactions with Thunderbird community members, paid contributors, and Thunderbird Council members. > o No interactions in any official…

What would you propose as an alternative to people who just… constantly fill mailing lists with attacks on people or the like? Reasonable people don’t need to have such harsh actions applied of course. But reasonable people don’t end up getting to this point! I am a bit partial to messaging when someone is banned like this, but there are definitely cases where people will just keep on arguing about something forever…

> What would you propose as an alternative to people who just… constantly fill mailing lists with attacks on people or the like?

As far as I am aware there are two models for community moderation: 1. The strict democratic process with councils, elections, laws and what not; 2. bdfl.

Problems arise when attempts are made to reconcile both models. In the former case you make sure that the community itself self-governs. In the latter case you have bdfl who tells someone to just fuck off out of the community. What happens when certain people with actual power (like ability to disable accounts) try to impose their own view and speak for the community? You get a shit show. There are "laws" one has to abide with and then there are certain high-ranking members who can ban users on a bad day - laws and unwritten by-laws. This leads directly to echo chambers.

So, you either strictly follow the process you yourslef instantiated, be dictatorship or become a hegemony. And don't forget we are talking about some random individual spamming mailing lists. As far as I understand this was already high-ranking, possibly valued member of the community.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#156

Post by tssva »

kayson wrote: post #5

I really love Thunderbird; I've been using it for at least a decade now. There are definitely places where it still needs improvement, after years and years. While Betterbird seems exciting in theory, the attitude of the project leader (who it seems is a banned former contributor to Mozilla Thunderbird), and honestly even the arrogance in the name itself gives me pause. The issues laid out in this[0] email thread are…

"The issues laid out in this[0] email thread are pretty concerning"

Since there are no examples of the accused behaviors it is impossible to determine whether the issues raised are actually accurate.

I also would consider the issues of whether a governance board is legitimately serving and whether its own processes were followed much more than technicalities.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#157

Post by esperent »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #100
esperent wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in the unfortunate position of having to ban someone from an online tech support forum of which I was the mod. This was after weeks of myself and other mods trying to resolve the issues with them. Issues like name calling, trying to stir up racial issues, making fun of new users for being noobs, trying to stir up other users against the mods, all that teenage BS (although the person was in their 20s or 30s). Th…

I'm sorry to hear that. I fully believe in people's right to cut off contact, even across platforms. It's more that in this case this power seems to have been centralized by the project, whereas I believe it should rest only with the individual - cutting off contact for another member, using community participation as a threat to enforce it, is what raises my hackles.

> whereas I believe it should rest only with the individual

You are free to believe that. Just as an organization is free to believe differently, and to set their rules accordingly.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#158

Post by nerdponx »

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #148
flomo wrote: post #29

> Multi-line view like in Outlook, Lotus Notes and Postbox > Betterbird: Yes! > Thunderbird: No, requested since 2003 Wonderful! Back in the mid-2000s, this annoyed me enough to switch from Thunderbird to Outlook for work mail. Great to hear they had to fork the project to match the delicious UI of Lotus Notes. Honestly since then I haven't thought much about local PC mail clients to even consider any alternatives. A…

I mean but did I miss something or Thunderbird is open source? Like the author lists a bunch of functionalities that were requested for Thunderbird but weren't implemented, but they implemented in Betterbird, was it a bad thing to maybe create a pull request for Thunderbird to keep a single product? Or spotlight was the main objective?

Their point is that patches for these things have existed for years and/or were fixed and then un-fixed later.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#160

Post by nerdponx »

Yoric wrote: post #49
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #42

While I don’t have insight into the ban of this particular member, I can’t fail to notice a growing list of people leaving Mozilla sometimes abruptly, without a lot of explanations and where relations with management seems to play a significant role. Graydon Hoare comes to mind. I also remember the interaction between the community and the fenix team feeling frankly tense if not hostile. Has something been happening…

Google invests at least one order of magnitude more money in Chrome than Mozilla can afford to invest in Firefox. Google has attracted many Firefox developers, both employees and external contributors. Chrome has reduced the browser share of Firefox to a few meager percent. All of this is bad for morale (and finances), it's as simple as that. Also, the failure of Firefox OS and Mozilla Connected Devices didn't help,…

> Firefox OS and Mozilla Connected Devices

This seems more like the actual problem.

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