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I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

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Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#151

Post by luckylion »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #144
luckylion wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... which are unknown because CloudFlare's service includes "hide your backend". If CloudFlare provided a way to find out the host of a website they run, and gave said host a way to find out what servers specifically are hosting it, they'd have a much better argument, because they'd make it easy for anyone to use the legal system to go after offenders. I don't know how easy it is for US citizens or law enforcement to…

> If CloudFlare provided a way to find out the host of a website they run Surely they respond to subpoenas and warrants.

If you're in the US, probably. If you're outside the US, from what I understand, they require you to file in the US (or have US law enforcement work on your behalf).

For all intents and purposes, that means they don't for anyone outside the US, except for very high profile cases. For everything else, they're providing a legal shield.

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#152

Post by teddyh »

mike_d wrote: post #142
yardstick wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did cloudfares customer tell them they wanted their services for DDOS?

By the nature of how Cloudflare works, you have to provide them with your domain name and the content of your website. See if you could come up with a simple regular expression to deny services to these well known DDoS providers that are actively using Cloudflare: CryptoStresser.com Instant-Stresser.com FreeStresser.so StresserAI.com Booter.sx Flystress.net Bootyou.net

Say you go to a bank to get a loan, and you give the bank your details, including your address. The address you give is in a notorious crime-infested neighborhood. Does the bank have the moral obligation to deny you a loan, in order not to support criminal activity? I mean, they most likely will. However, most people instead like to attribute this behavior to banks being racist. Are you saying that this should instead be mandatory for the banks to do?

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#153

Post by cft »

cedilla wrote: post #112
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #77

The deplatforming logic is practical but pretty shaky as a long term strategy. Kiwifarms absolutely may have been a despicable place causing real harm to people. In that case, the police should initiate a request to take them down that Cloudflare or ISPs etc. are obligated to follow. The problem is the government is completely ineffective and regularly offloads their responsibility to platforms like Facebook, Cloudfl…

You're focusing so hard on the rights of kiwifarms that you completely forget that cloudflare also has rights. Cloudflare has the liberty of association, and that includes the right to terminate contracts with others who actively harm Cloudflare and its costumers. And if Kiwifarms sending out bytes to the internet is free speech, then compelling cloudflare to send those same bytes is impernissible forced speech.

The problem here is that DDoS mitigation requires centralization. There aren't cheap alternatives. Same goes for any utility. Would it be okay for Visa to permanently turn off all your current and future credit and ATM cards if you used Visa in objectionable way, say you paid a meth dealer and then resold at scale? Because it's "much faster" to turn off Visa than to do a police investigation and issue an arrest warrant. Would it be okay for Google to delete your Google account to suddenly cut you off from your Android phone? Would it be ok for an electric company to suddenly turn off your electric service because they suspect you cook meth? Would it be ok for a water company to stop providing water to a building, because a criminal lives in one of the apartments?

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#154

Post by timwaagh »

The author mentions he doesn't want us to judge him on his past. But I don't think teenagers are that different from adults so I doubt there is any real basis for that. He'd probably still do it if that was the best way to make money. If he had not written that, I probably wouldn't have given it any second thought though. It's a good article just don't tell people what not to think they might just start to think what you didn't want them to.

I strongly agree with the points made. What Cloudflare is doing is terrible. They should remove this protection and publish an apology to the victims before a court decides to think the same.

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#155

Post by zaptheimpaler »

cedilla wrote: post #112
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #77

The deplatforming logic is practical but pretty shaky as a long term strategy. Kiwifarms absolutely may have been a despicable place causing real harm to people. In that case, the police should initiate a request to take them down that Cloudflare or ISPs etc. are obligated to follow. The problem is the government is completely ineffective and regularly offloads their responsibility to platforms like Facebook, Cloudfl…

You're focusing so hard on the rights of kiwifarms that you completely forget that cloudflare also has rights. Cloudflare has the liberty of association, and that includes the right to terminate contracts with others who actively harm Cloudflare and its costumers. And if Kiwifarms sending out bytes to the internet is free speech, then compelling cloudflare to send those same bytes is impernissible forced speech.

I just don't think its ever going to be realistic for a company to be held responsible for everything every customer puts up on the web, because there are millions/billions of them.

The problem is any organized body of people can start a similar pressure campaign against Cloudflare or Facebook or Reddit. It is now their job to be a complete legal system - listen to each complaint, adjudicate who is right and who is wrong, what is ethical or not, and respond. Which websites are allowed to exist, which subreddits, which ads and messages are okay and which aren't..

This is an incredibly dangerous & undemocratic precedent because those companies answer to stockholders not citizens. There is a reason the judicial system is set up the way it is, with elected lawmakers and juries of ordinary people.

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#156

Post by viraptor »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #155
cedilla wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're focusing so hard on the rights of kiwifarms that you completely forget that cloudflare also has rights. Cloudflare has the liberty of association, and that includes the right to terminate contracts with others who actively harm Cloudflare and its costumers. And if Kiwifarms sending out bytes to the internet is free speech, then compelling cloudflare to send those same bytes is impernissible forced speech.

I just don't think its ever going to be realistic for a company to be held responsible for everything every customer puts up on the web, because there are millions/billions of them. The problem is any organized body of people can start a similar pressure campaign against Cloudflare or Facebook or Reddit. It is now their job to be a complete legal system - listen to each complaint, adjudicate who is right and who is w…

> ever going to be realistic for a company to be held responsible for everything every customer puts up on the web

It's good that this is not what people expect from them then. We're still taking about most egregious examples discussed for years with documented lethal real world impact. Just like they already say in their TOS they would act on.

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#157

Post by HL33tibCe7 »

ellen364 wrote: post #139
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #77

The deplatforming logic is practical but pretty shaky as a long term strategy. Kiwifarms absolutely may have been a despicable place causing real harm to people. In that case, the police should initiate a request to take them down that Cloudflare or ISPs etc. are obligated to follow. The problem is the government is completely ineffective and regularly offloads their responsibility to platforms like Facebook, Cloudfl…

> A private company should not be making decisions on essentially freedom of speech. This comes up a lot and makes me think I’ve misunderstood US free speech dynamics. I thought the USA traditionally limited the government’s ability to regulate free speech, leaving it to private / social regulation. In other words, it was up to individuals, communities, companies and so on to decide what was acceptable. But perhaps t…

You’re confusing the First Amendment — a particular law about the government’s requirement to uphold the principle of freedom of speech — with the principle of freedom of speech more generally.

In this context, the First Amendment is irrelevant - it doesn’t apply here; it says nothing about the actions of private companies. Instead, people are discussing the principle of freedom of speech, and in particular the extent to which private companies should be able to limit speech.

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