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German digital signage ban prompts confusion

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Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#151

Post by Bewelge »

adrianN wrote: post #63
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't the ads, really: They are realistically speaking of lighting in bus stops, underpasses, and train stations. Lighting in those areas, which tend to be dark or populated, helps folks feel safer. Taking away the ads makes these places darker, and I can understand not suddenly having nervous folks not take the bus or train. Though, I agree: They can get bent about the contracts. The proper response is to install…

Those areas are explicitly excluded from this.

Those areas are the only areas I can think of that have LED signs in Germany though. Of course not entirely sure but I don't think there's a single one of those large LED screens (like the ones on time square) in Hamburg. Maybe Berlin/Frankfurt have some?

Unless I'm completely blanking on these signs being used elsewhere, excluding the bus-stop signs sounds like this will not have any noticeable effect apart from providing a nice sounding headline.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#152

Post by adrianN »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #118
adrianN wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can always create methane or ammonia from hydrogen. That's a solved problem. The only research left to do is to bring down the price.

You can do hydrogen, but ammonia production is like 16% efficient?

Efficiency is less important than cost. Maybe ammonia is so much easier to transport and store that it's worth the efficiency penalty.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#153

Post by morsch »

xxs wrote: post #129
morsch wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average power usage for a 1 person household in Germany is 1300 kwh/year (roughly, numbers vary, but not to a degree that it matters). That's about 150W sustained. So 1500W for a large sign, that's like 150 high power LED light bulbs, I guess that checks out. Anything that reduces ads in the public sphere is fine by me.

>1300 kwh/year this is extremely, extremely low. No heating, no cooling, no hot water, no car charging. A fridge alone tends to be over 400KW/h. Edit: polycaster listed close to 5kWh/year for 3+ household. 1person being 2k. So, extremely low estimate.

Well, infamously, German households tend to generate heat using gas, and not electricity. AC is rare. EVs are rare.

Either way, I wanted to know what the actual power draw of those signs is, and since it was given in multiples of a (German) single household, well, that's probably about the number they are working with.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#154

Post by xxs »

puchatek wrote: post #145
moffkalast wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone lauds LEDs for being super energy efficient, but the reality is that they really aren't. It's just that they are being compared to even worse light sources that were so bad at efficiency it's hard to really grasp how much they sucked.

If they are so inefficient then where does the wasted energy go?

The wasted energy as per usual - heat/entropy. It's just that LEDs are the best we have.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#155

Post by adrianN »

Bewelge wrote: post #151
adrianN wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those areas are explicitly excluded from this.

Those areas are the only areas I can think of that have LED signs in Germany though. Of course not entirely sure but I don't think there's a single one of those large LED screens (like the ones on time square) in Hamburg. Maybe Berlin/Frankfurt have some? Unless I'm completely blanking on these signs being used elsewhere, excluding the bus-stop signs sounds like this will not have any noticeable effect apart from pro…

Berlin definitely has some.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#156

Post by avidiax »

sexy_panda wrote: post #108
moffkalast wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone lauds LEDs for being super energy efficient, but the reality is that they really aren't. It's just that they are being compared to even worse light sources that were so bad at efficiency it's hard to really grasp how much they sucked.

Is there a more efficient way of producing light? Because I don't know of any.

The one that's the most neglected is natural lighting. Light pipes, solar collectors, and microprism window treatments are all available.

The second thing is white paint. You need less outdoor lighting if the built environment absorbs less light.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#157

Post by andrepd »

sidkshatriya wrote: post #102
phartenfeller wrote: post #32

Here in Germany, there was recently a leak in the news. It said that a single LED sign consumes as much energy as 10 single households[0]. Of course, the companies don't want to give any official information. That is pretty high for no real value for society in my opinion... [0] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/led-reklame...

> That is pretty high for no real value for society in my opinion... There is a widespread belief that Advertising serves no purpose to humanity. Advertising is like anything in life: In high doses it is harmful. In lower doses it is useful. If there are regulators in your country that prevent advertisers from making false claims, even better. Advertising has helped me hone onto products and services in my whole life…

> But there is a space for advertising that is gentler, honest and educational. Think of advertising as a way of companies to say "Hey! here's something we're proud of -- please have a look. By selling to you, the customer, we can make a profit and you can get the benefit from our product".

I cannot recall one single advertisement I ever saw in my life, other than some institutional/non-profit ads, which remotely fits that idyllic description. So it's really a moot point. "What if advertising were just calm factual information", well but it's not! It's definitely not! It's psychological warfare of moderate-to-high intensity. So what use is pretending it's something it's not? It's very disingenuous to pretend it can ever be "gentle, honest, and educational" (lol)

I also don't see how advertising is responsible for chip mass-production and Moore's law.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#158

Post by xxs »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #149
xxs wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1300 kwh/year this is extremely, extremely low. No heating, no cooling, no hot water, no car charging. A fridge alone tends to be over 400KW/h. Edit: polycaster listed close to 5kWh/year for 3+ household. 1person being 2k. So, extremely low estimate.

Heating is a separate cost, rarely electric. Cooling - did you know that Germans aren’t big fans of A/C? Hot water - same as heating. Besides, in Germany we don’t say “Car charging”, we say “eat healthy and ride your bike”.

>Heating is a separate cost, rarely electric.

Of course, geothermal pumps are still a better option than most.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#159

Post by puchatek »

sidkshatriya wrote: post #102
phartenfeller wrote: post #32

Here in Germany, there was recently a leak in the news. It said that a single LED sign consumes as much energy as 10 single households[0]. Of course, the companies don't want to give any official information. That is pretty high for no real value for society in my opinion... [0] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/led-reklame...

> That is pretty high for no real value for society in my opinion... There is a widespread belief that Advertising serves no purpose to humanity. Advertising is like anything in life: In high doses it is harmful. In lower doses it is useful. If there are regulators in your country that prevent advertisers from making false claims, even better. Advertising has helped me hone onto products and services in my whole life…

Yeah I'm happy to throw out that baby with the advertising bathwater. Fuck it, I'll even break the news to the few friends in advertising that society has decided to evolve and that their services won't be needed any longer. But unfortunately, ads are how people prefer to pay online so we're stuck with it.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#160

Post by belter »

xxs wrote: post #129
morsch wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average power usage for a 1 person household in Germany is 1300 kwh/year (roughly, numbers vary, but not to a degree that it matters). That's about 150W sustained. So 1500W for a large sign, that's like 150 high power LED light bulbs, I guess that checks out. Anything that reduces ads in the public sphere is fine by me.

>1300 kwh/year this is extremely, extremely low. No heating, no cooling, no hot water, no car charging. A fridge alone tends to be over 400KW/h. Edit: polycaster listed close to 5kWh/year for 3+ household. 1person being 2k. So, extremely low estimate.

A small family fridge, with a F energy label (so pretty bad), will normally go for a total consumption of 270 kWh a year.
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