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Your online identity is owned by your email provider (2019)

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Re: Your online identity is owned by your email provider (2019)

#151
post #107
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run my own mail server as well, on my own domain, own server, physically present in my home. It's increasingly becoming a hassle.. Especially sending mail from a "consumer" line is tricky, they block outgoing port 25 and no longer really provide a relay host for you to go through either.. I basically had to infiltrate my current ISP to get access to people in netops and gaslight them into configuring reverse-dns an…

> Nation states absolutely should provide and host, e-mail accounts for their citizens Because nation states are well known for producing usable software at a reasonable cost to tax payers? IRL this would cost billions and everyone under 60 would forward their gov’t mail to gmail.

> Because nation states are well known for producing usable software at a reasonable cost to tax payers?

Yes, they are. The software, hardware, and automated systems underlying transit systems in Japan, Taiwan, some of the UK, and a couple other countries, continues to make trains not crash into eachother for just about a hundred years now depending on the system. I don't know too much about it, but it seems the same to be true for whatever runs the stoplights around town.

It's not always nationalized, but the software used to plan trash pickups and routes, bus routes, bus signage, sewer planning and control, shipyard signaling, and numerous other public works is at least tangentially taxpayer funded and government organized. Those seem to work pretty swell considering their level of complexity (at least in the countries I've lived in).

Here in Taiwan the government websites can be notoriously terrible, but some are really fantastic, for example https://data.gov.tw . There's also strict requirements for accessibility that are rigidly enforced, which is a nice thing you don't often get from private software (you have to depend on a disabled person suing a site before it'll be made accessible in the USA - abled people don't have "standing" it seems).

Honestly, it sounds like you're making a very generalized libertarian argument, and I don't want to risk a politics flamewar, but I'm really not sure what alternative you're offering for governments building software, that doesn't involve total dissolution of the government. The department of motor vehicles needs a website one way or the other, they're either going to build it in house or pay contractors to do it, either way, taxpayers are paying for the website, and any additional app-like online services.

Was there some specific examples you had of unusable software or unreasonably priced software that would justify such an extreme solution? Cause the dichotomy to me seems false: surely there are ways to improve the quality or reduce the cost of taxpayer funded software, if necessary? Surely that's easier than... whatever it is you're suggesting?

edit: Some other good examples of nation-state provided software in Taiwan, there was some fantastic contact tracing apps and backends implemented by the government. The UI was admittedly quite.. sparse, but it was undeniably functional and accessible. And, it came with strong guarantees about data anonymity, which you can never trust from a private company.

edit: I'm clicking through some various USA websites now and these all seem just fine to me. I guess the accusation is that they took too much money to develop? https://www.congress.gov https://www.vaccines.gov/ https://www.cdc.gov https://www.hhs.gov/

seems the same to me for the UK although their cookie banners are hilariously absurd https://www.nhs.uk/ https://www.gov.uk/

Re: Your online identity is owned by your email provider (2019)

#152
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nation states absolutely should provide and host, e-mail accounts for their citizens Because nation states are well known for producing usable software at a reasonable cost to tax payers? IRL this would cost billions and everyone under 60 would forward their gov’t mail to gmail.

>Because nation states are well known for producing usable software at a reasonable cost to tax payers? The largest transfer of public property into the hands of private enterprise in human history was the Internet. At that time it was wild and limitless and full of promise. It’s pretty much stagnated from there. Just like scientific and medical research, tech research is the most effective and has the largest societ…

> Just like scientific and medical research, tech research is the most effective and has the largest societal benefit when done at public universities on the taxpayer’s dime.

counter-example: Bell Labs.

Re: Your online identity is owned by your email provider (2019)

#153
post #79
post #25

It is a bit overkill, but the closest you can get to owning your online identity is to "own" your own domain. sarcastiquotes used because you don't really own a domain you only rent it. I run my own mail server because I am a sys-admin and running a mail-server is something I do for fun. but the amount of agency you gain once you have a domain is staggering. people without a domain are pretty much second class net ci…

I run my own mail server as well, on my own domain, own server, physically present in my home. It's increasingly becoming a hassle.. Especially sending mail from a "consumer" line is tricky, they block outgoing port 25 and no longer really provide a relay host for you to go through either.. I basically had to infiltrate my current ISP to get access to people in netops and gaslight them into configuring reverse-dns an…

Of-course even with end to end encryption, the amount of meta data available to the government in this configuration would be a systematic risk to democracy.

Re: Your online identity is owned by your email provider (2019)

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because nation states are well known for producing usable software at a reasonable cost to tax payers? The largest transfer of public property into the hands of private enterprise in human history was the Internet. At that time it was wild and limitless and full of promise. It’s pretty much stagnated from there. Just like scientific and medical research, tech research is the most effective and has the largest societ…

> Just like scientific and medical research, tech research is the most effective and has the largest societal benefit when done at public universities on the taxpayer’s dime. counter-example: Bell Labs.

Was that entirely private? I thought Bell Labs was getting operating budget from Western Electric, which while also private, as I recall, was getting massive investment from the US government to develop infrastructure across the USA? And then wasn't there also DARPA funding? Also, they seemed unaggressive with their patents, licensing tons of them quite freely.

Also, is it good that Bell labs was the way it was? Americans seem to have quite a hard go with telecom, maybe not as bad as some countries, but from what I can see the country is riddled with regional functional monopolies, gaps in service, high prices for rural areas, and bad behavior regarding net neutrality on the part of ISPs. Perhaps the situation wouldn't be so bad if the USA had nationalized, or at least partially nationalized, its phone and internet systems?

Re: Your online identity is owned by your email provider (2019)

#155
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While less private if you have a domain instead of hosting youself you can delegate the handling to a mail provider. This way you retain the ability to seamlessly change mail provider. And you gain other benefits like infinit number of alias while requiring a low level of technical knowledge and maintenance.

Agreed. And Migadu has quite cheap plans and very good service during the two years that I use them. Not affiliated, just a happy customer.

Zoho has a free plan that I've been happy with although its only been a month since I moved to them from gmail.

Re: Your online identity is owned by your email provider (2019)

#156

Somewhat tangential, but I wonder where do people using their own domain draw the line. I personally use a "stable" firstname@lastname.com for supposedly trusted, long-term services (e.g. bank, utilities, etc.) and for services that require my identity for obvious reasons (e.g. shipping/billing address). For sites where I prefer not to reveal my identity (not even to the site operator), I use Fastmail’s Masked Email…

I think the intersection of [service where I prefer not to reveal my identity] and [matters if I lose access to the service and therefore control of the email address at 1000-1 odds] is very small.

It is going to be mostly for things like a spare "fun" Reddit account, or some one off crappy give your email to download the PDF sort a thing.

Re: Your online identity is owned by your email provider (2019)

#157
post #79
post #25

It is a bit overkill, but the closest you can get to owning your online identity is to "own" your own domain. sarcastiquotes used because you don't really own a domain you only rent it. I run my own mail server because I am a sys-admin and running a mail-server is something I do for fun. but the amount of agency you gain once you have a domain is staggering. people without a domain are pretty much second class net ci…

I run my own mail server as well, on my own domain, own server, physically present in my home. It's increasingly becoming a hassle.. Especially sending mail from a "consumer" line is tricky, they block outgoing port 25 and no longer really provide a relay host for you to go through either.. I basically had to infiltrate my current ISP to get access to people in netops and gaslight them into configuring reverse-dns an…

Regarding nation states, this sounds like a wet dream of any govt. to be able to centrally mine your email data :facepalm.

I know the NSA can probably do it but at least it’s somewhat gated to that intelligence community. Opening it up further is a recipe for disaster.

Re: Your online identity is owned by your email provider (2019)

#158
post #25

It is a bit overkill, but the closest you can get to owning your online identity is to "own" your own domain. sarcastiquotes used because you don't really own a domain you only rent it. I run my own mail server because I am a sys-admin and running a mail-server is something I do for fun. but the amount of agency you gain once you have a domain is staggering. people without a domain are pretty much second class net ci…

this is not a good idea for multiple reasons. john@smith.stlouis.mo.us ? Who gets that first? arkhramud@maprikhoychich.stlouis.mo.us ? How hard is to trace a person from one location to another? To fix this email problem abandon the email as an account identifier. Use a 'username', or as I do a random set of characters and digits. There is no reason my account (login) has to be indexed as "john.smith@example.com". It…

How about [social_security_number].us

Its already unique and tied to each citizen.

Re: Your online identity is owned by your email provider (2019)

#159
post #86
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems backwards. Most email providers won't reissue your login, while domain registrars will definitely resell your domain.

They may not reissue it immediately but I am not aware of any mainstream email provider that promises to never reuse an identity.

> I am not aware of any mainstream email provider that promises to never reuse an identity.

Google: https://support.google.com/mail/answer/56256

In contrast, Microsoft only waits a year before recycling email addresses.

Re: Your online identity is owned by your email provider (2019)

#160
post #5

> The only real solution is to rethink online identity and stop depending on email addresses. I think that is true, but it would have to be a better solution. Some groups heavily push for this reformation of online identity but most of them have in common that they want to strongly bind online identity to your offline one. That simply isn't desirable in many cases.

iirc online identity used to be tied to your public key signature ? Might be too technical for most population to use, but the ideal solution is already there I think ?

That's what Apple is doing for their new thing

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31643917

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