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Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend

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Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend

#151
post #116
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that Xtend can be easily translated to Java source code is a big sign that it probably won't have any dramatic impact on your productivity I do not believe that there is any evidence for this statement. Translating ARM assembly language into opcodes is orders of magnitudes easier than translating Xtend into Java, yet I would argue that even that had a dramatic impact on my productivity back when I was doing…

The evidence for this statement best comes from a research paper* that attempts to formalize language expressibility . According to their formalization, language features are classified as macro expressible if they can be implemented in terms of local syntax transformations of other language features. The paper shows that expressivity, power, and conciseness come the most from those features that are not macro expres…

"The paper shows that expressivity, power, and conciseness come the most from those features…"

I do not accept your implicit claim that a language must be more expressive, powerful, or concise to be more productive.

As a counter-argument for the expressive claim, consider a language that required one to prefix each line with the number of non-blank characters it contains. I am fairly sure I would be more productive using a preprocessor that computed those prefixes for me. Real world examples of the same are the abolishment of line numbers in Basic, assemblers that know about structure offsets, the C preprocessor, and type inference. Each, I think, helped increase productivity.

'Power' cannot be a factor at all, as basicly all programming language are equally powerful; there are no degrees of Turing completeness.

That leaves conciseness. I do not think that claim would need debunking, but for completeness: if that helped productivity, everybody would use single-character variable and function names (should mostly be possible in languages that allow Unicode source code), and program in APL or perl.

Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend

#152
post #144
post #108

I'm pretty disappointed in the discussion that has gone here. There's been so much argument over things that don't matter much in the end, like whether or not optional semicolons and parenthesis are a good thing. These things are so superficial! It makes me believe that few people appreciate what actually makes a language good or bad. The fact that Xtend can be easily translated to Java source code is a big sign that…

HN is the wrong forum to discuss this. Many people here are not the target audience who don't use Java and have a preconceived dim view of it. (I'm expecting downvotes but whatever.)

You're right. HN is predominantly fashion lead hipsters (No offense).

Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend

#153
There's an assumption that compiling to Java source will make this easy for Java developers to transition to, which I believe is completely misguided. If you edit the generated java source you give up the ability to use Xtend at that point; if you don't then it's no different to using a language which compiles directly to jvm bytecodes. Their example of being able to debug through the generated java sounds like a drawback to me: you have to maintain two models of the program in your head instead of one. Much easier to debug through the original source!

I applaud any effort to cut down on the amount of boilerplate required in java though.

Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what your beef with Scala is, but you're seriously deluded.

Your problem is that you think that Scala can overcome its perception problem. No, it can't. Scala is history and will never be anything. Look to Kotlin.

Scala, Clojure and all other functional languages are --and will continue to be for the foreseeable future--, non mainstream.

Only languages with conventional C or Smalltalk based syntax and some functional "injections" have ever become popular.

Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend

#155

scala's own evangelists are worried that scala won't overtake java: "...Scala (the language, the tool-chain, the ecosystem, nothing about Scala) is not mature enough to be a Java replacement and barring an order of magnitude or two more investment into Scala commercialization, I don't see Scala becoming a Java replacement"[1]. this is despite seeing twitter and foursquare adopt scala at scale. and Scala's team, Oders…

My understanding is that the primary group of Scala evangelists are aiming for Scala adoption through promotion direct to enterprises as a blanket solution to every market, without any real effort to promote Scala at grass roots or toolchain levels.

Correctly some other prominent Scala community members are concerned that this approach can easily lead to high profile failures in Scala adoption and that is a death blow when a language/platform is in infancy and that they should narrow their initial promotion to a few key markets and grow from there.

Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what your beef with Scala is, but you're seriously deluded.

Your problem is that you think that Scala can overcome its perception problem. No, it can't. Scala is history and will never be anything. Look to Kotlin.

[deleted]

Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend

#157

I'm sorry to say, but I think the Go programming language has just been owned by this Extend programming language for Java. Go missed the boat when it did not include some minimum class support to appease the developers used to Java, C++, and so on.

Isn't comparing Go to Xtend something like comparing apples to oranges? The first one is a language that can be used for low-level development. The other one provides a nicer syntax and some cool features for Java. If anything, it can be compared to Cofeescript which basically does the same thing for Javascript.

Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend

#158
I'm actually kind of worried about what the generated Java code will look like. From what I can see from the greeter example, it's.. well, not very pretty. It certainly looks nothing like what one would normally write if one was writing pure Java code. Imagine having to maintain that.

Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend

#160

I'm actually kind of worried about what the generated Java code will look like. From what I can see from the greeter example, it's.. well, not very pretty. It certainly looks nothing like what one would normally write if one was writing pure Java code. Imagine having to maintain that.

I 'm pretty sure you would maintain the extend code. Otherwise your doing it wrong :P
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