Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists • Hacker News Board

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#151

Post by forensic » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 9:01 PM UTC

dylangs1030 wrote: post #38

handelaar wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For values of 'worked for alcohol' that include 'moved world's largest criminal organisation into non-alcohol-related activity without impacting its organisational capacity one jot'.

Exactly. Crime would adjust itself, or find a new market. Compromising by legalizing something which has a purpose in being illegal is detrimental to solving the problem.

If the law causes more harm than the drug in the first place, the law needs to go.

Criminals are just people. They do what is most profitable for them given their circumstances. If you legalize drugs, most of the current drug criminals will get normal jobs at McDonalds or Wall Street or whatever.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#152

Post by mdda » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 10:39 PM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #146

ulisesroche wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to tap all the fiber running through the US to track down someone. That would take too long. Much easier to put "Wanted" posters up with "$$$" on the bottom and wait for the head to come back.

Sure, if you knew who they were already. But if you don't, you need to start tracking packets.

Do you know who any of them are already? Plausible deniability doesn't count for much.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#153

Post by libraryatnight » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 11:17 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #116

davekinkead wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it be safer & a hell of a lot cheaper if drugs were regulated according to their harm? Grass is no worse than alcohol or tobacco, while cocaine doesn't cause any more social issues than those. The cartels only exist because the illegality of those drugs creates massive profit margins. Remove that and many of the problems are solved.

I'm going through a very good book right now that this reminds me of. It's more about the middle east than Latin America, but I think it applies: "Poppy cultivation had become an agribusiness and the dealers for the Afghan drug barons now had technical advisers who were visiting Nangarhar to advise on the crop and the product, paying in advance, and so concerned about the health of their workers that they had given t…

And yet, when a considerable number of people sign a petition asking about legalization of at least cannabis, we get a response like this:

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/response/what-we-hav...

A whole lot of words and nothing being said. I shouldn't say nothing, the message 'we're humoring you all with these petitions, they don't actually mean anything,' is pretty strong.

Apologies for the segue from Anon operations, but reading this excerpt made me remember just how annoying the situation is and I immediately thought of the petition.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#154

Post by burgerbrain » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 11:41 PM UTC

Fliko wrote: post #149

epicureanideal wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alchohol doesn't require a car to kill either. How many cases are there of spousal murder while intoxicated? Also, heroin generally kills when people try to rob others for money to get heroin, not when people are on heroin, because it is a strong depressant and people tend to just lounge around like with pot. If heroin were legal and cheap that problem goes away.

Alcohol is a very strong depressant too, and most of the heroin deaths aren't from people robbing houses that are empty while they are in withdrawal due to lack of money to buy heroin. Heroin (and alcohol) also cause psychosis, which is probably the biggest cause for things such as spousal murder. Legalization is a weak argument when the only evidence is "It worked for Portugal!" or "If we take away the criminal orga…

"Instead of fighting the infinite number of criminals I'd rather we help the dudes who fucked up and now want to make their lives better."

You realize that is exactly what Portugal is doing, right?

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#155

Post by potatolicious » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 11:47 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #144

potatolicious wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going through a very good book right now that this reminds me of. It's more about the middle east than Latin America, but I think it applies: "Poppy cultivation had become an agribusiness and the dealers for the Afghan drug barons now had technical advisers who were visiting Nangarhar to advise on the crop and the product, paying in advance, and so concerned about the health of their workers that they had given t…

Didn't China have big problems with opium use several hundred years ago which drove them to cut it off? (They may not have made it illegal, but they at least cut off trade routes)

I'm Chinese, and the Opium Wars has had a lasting impact stronger than most people in the West realize or give credit for.

There is a somewhat widespread belief (and certainly corroborated by the history textbooks I had growing up) that the opium trade into China was politically motivated, as opposed to merely that of financial greed. There are persistent claims, even now, that the British encouraged the use of opium in an attempt to destabilize and make weak the Chinese Empire for the express purpose of then making war. The opium trade, and the subsequent war, continues to be a historical black mark that fuels Eastern distrust of the West.

Without blaming anyone even, the Chinese widely acknowledge that opium was one of the primary causes of the decline of the Empire (along with the common blame of governmental excess). This has fostered an extremely skeptical and negative attitude towards narcotics that has lasted to the present day. At least on paper, drug offenses in Taiwan are still punishable by death - though it's not applied as rigorously as before.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#156

Post by andrewflnr » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 12:13 AM UTC

forensic wrote: post #150

andrewflnr wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the "doomed to fail" part. What bad thing happens when you take out known crime bosses? They get replaced quickly? Do it again. They can only take it so long. Is it more expensive than hundreds of law-enforcement officers working for decades "grinding away at the base"? I rather doubt it. You probably don't need to go all "helicopters and M-16s" on them. I'm sure it can be done much less expensively than…

Extra judicial assassinations lead to government corruption. The gangsters on the street go away, but new gangsters in government are created. Due process is there for a reason.

Fair enough. But in a government already run by gangsters, like Mexico or worse, that's less compelling. I wonder if it's possible to have due process for assassinations...

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#157

Post by epicureanideal » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 1:05 AM UTC

dylangs1030 wrote: post #147

snsr wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I used prostitution as an example, I personally don't see why it should be illegal. However heroin addiction is not the same as corporations and governments lobbying in cahoots. Drugs aren't really viable for an effective lifestyle - at least, not the ones organized crime profits the most on. Even prescription drugs like Vicodin were nearly pulled off the market because of how dangerous they are, even when used cor…

I'm not being judgemental - do you know of any high functioning hard drug users? Marijuana and LSD, etc. aren't what I'm talking about. Alcohol does get in the way of functioning too, but people can still use it in moderation. A drug should be banned when the grand majority of people cannot use it in moderation. Those are the drugs I'm talking about. (Again, answering a slew of responses in one).

A former roommate of mine held down a full time job while he was a heavy user of heroin and occasional user of other substances. The only problem was when he ran out of money to buy more, not when he was on it with enough money to support the habit.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#158

Post by Fliko » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 1:42 AM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #154

Fliko wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alcohol is a very strong depressant too, and most of the heroin deaths aren't from people robbing houses that are empty while they are in withdrawal due to lack of money to buy heroin. Heroin (and alcohol) also cause psychosis, which is probably the biggest cause for things such as spousal murder. Legalization is a weak argument when the only evidence is "It worked for Portugal!" or "If we take away the criminal orga…

"Instead of fighting the infinite number of criminals I'd rather we help the dudes who fucked up and now want to make their lives better." You realize that is exactly what Portugal is doing, right?

Apparently not, but I also see lifetime use of heroin also nearly doubled due to legalization, and there is still question on what effects were caused by the legalization and what effects weren't.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#159

Post by forensic » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 2:32 AM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #156

forensic wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extra judicial assassinations lead to government corruption. The gangsters on the street go away, but new gangsters in government are created. Due process is there for a reason.

Fair enough. But in a government already run by gangsters, like Mexico or worse, that's less compelling. I wonder if it's possible to have due process for assassinations...

If you have a trial it's not an assassination anymore.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#160

Post by salemh » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 3:11 AM UTC

dylangs1030 wrote: post #147

snsr wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I used prostitution as an example, I personally don't see why it should be illegal. However heroin addiction is not the same as corporations and governments lobbying in cahoots. Drugs aren't really viable for an effective lifestyle - at least, not the ones organized crime profits the most on. Even prescription drugs like Vicodin were nearly pulled off the market because of how dangerous they are, even when used cor…

I'm not being judgemental - do you know of any high functioning hard drug users? Marijuana and LSD, etc. aren't what I'm talking about. Alcohol does get in the way of functioning too, but people can still use it in moderation. A drug should be banned when the grand majority of people cannot use it in moderation. Those are the drugs I'm talking about. (Again, answering a slew of responses in one).

Outlier, sure, but your making a very large silly sweeping generalization and moral imposition on others.

http://amphetamines.com/paul-erdos.html

Generalization of "high functioning" musicians, artists, etc. Also not knowing the actual numbers of "hard" drug abusers in their respective fields. Generalization of cocaine and the finance industry, etc.

Once more, on Portugal, seeing hard drug use go down after a decade, not increasing. Do you think if heroin was legal you would dive straight into it?

Generalization / thought experiment; hard drug use would go down with proper (logical) drug education, where schedule 1 drugs are separated logically, not in a stupid sense of marijuana being on the same level of destruction as crack cocaine.