Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide

Because one (animal agriculture) emits way more carbon than it captures. That's what the article discusses - people trying to make a source of meat-like protein that emits no or negative carbon into the atmosphere.

There is a difference between animals and plants. That's a scientific fact.

The question isn't which is more valuable - it's: can they suffer?

The answer is yes - other animals suffer - just like us human animals. Plants don't suffer as they don't have pain receptor cells or a central nervous system.

Take your example of a potato and a cow. If you cut a potato in half - it lives on and you will have more potatoes if you let those pieces grow. I think you know what happens to a cow when it's cut in half.

Have you ever killed an animal? If so, how did it react? What did you feel while it was screaming for its life? What happens when you pick an apple or harvest nuts, legumes etc?

Another thought experiment. How do you think children would react to the following scenarios:

A) Cutting the throat of a baby sheep or pig, the blood gushing out and the animal screaming of pain - and the mother if she's nearby screaming as well because its baby is being slaughtered.

B) Cutting a carrot, apple, mango or other fruit / vegetable or crushing nuts.

There are various videos online showing how children react when they find out where meat comes from. They are shocked and cry - without even having to show them these graphic images. It's a sign that humans are not carnivores. Our mouths don't salivate when we see or smell blood, when we see intestines etc. quite the opposite - most people are disgusted by seeing all this stuff. That's why all this is hidden from us. We only see nice pieces of meat in the shops.

As per Carl Sagan's words - 'They (animals) are too much like us'.

The fact is - humans who are not hunter gatherers anymore or don't live in harsh environments, don't need meat to survive. Several government health organizations have already stated that humans can get adequate nutrition from plant-based foods alone.

Since you are here on HN, I'm assuming you are interested in tech. I'm assuming you appreciate a logical way of thinking.

What is more logical when it comes to feeding the world.

A) Consume foods that require FEWER resources and create less damage to our biosphere.

B) Consume foods that require MORE resources and slowly destroy our biosphere.

I'm not attacking your way of life. But we humans have given up previous practices that didn't make sense anymore, e.g. burning women alive because they were deemed 'witches'. Enslaving other humans, because they were deemed a lesser human. There are reports of farmers talking about how they've given up farming animals, as they realized 'there is somebody in there' - and transitioned to non animal farming. Just because something is a tradition, doesn't mean it's right. We humans evolve and so does our moral system.

Einstein talked about this 70 years ago - if we as a civilization want to survive, we can achieve this by 'widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.'

Future humans will equate what we are currently doing to animals the same way we find it morally reprehensible to enslave other humans. Even Star Trek envisioned this kind of future, where animals are not exploited anymore.

Like I said before, it would be great if the world could at least adopt the lifestyle you outlined, i.e. have a diet that's mostly plant-based. But as you already noted - the factory farm industry is trying to enter your world. And that's the problem - we need to eradicate this destructive industry.

A parting question:

If you can avoid cruelty, suffering and exploitation - why don't you?

Ignore all of the above, if you would die without eating meat.

I don't get why you have to eat fake food when you're vegan? I cook and eat plenty of plants, in fact one of my favourite dishes is a cssserole with aubergines, potatoes, bell peppers, courgettes, and a sauce of tomato, garlic and onion with plenty of extra virgin olive oil. A vegan could eat that. The last thing I'd think of eating if I were to go vegan (when hell freezes over) is fake cheese, or fake meat. I eat food because it fills my belly, not because it looks good.

Anyway, tell you what. You make your vegan nut paste and age it for a year. See what that gets you. Actually, I'll tell you: you'll get a dessicated, crumbly, bitter, mold-ridden mess. After a year, my sheep's milk hard chees is ... still cheese. It has a musky, gamey, smokey aroma, it has a piquant taste and you can feel the little lactic crystals curnching undertooth as you chew.

That is cheese.

And, no, you're never gonna get there with vegan nut paste. Not in a hundred years. Because plant proteins are not caseins, and because cheese is a gel made of coagulated casein, and vegan nut past is a paste. And a hundred other chemical, biological, organoleptic etc etc qualities that clearly distinguish cheese, from non cheese.

The only people you can convince that nut paste tastes like cheese are people used to eating processed cheese (American cheese) and other such abominations. Like you can fake burgers and nuggets, but not a steak, you can fake fake cheese, but not real cheese.

Down with fake food! I don't understand why vegans keep supporting the very food industry that is destroying the environment and torturing animals. It's the same people who sold you beef burgers when you weren't yet vegan that want to sell you pea burgers now that you are. Why do you think they'll care what you eat, or how destructive, or immoral its production is?

> All those animal products have the highest GHG emissions.

Highest- among all types of food we're currently producing. Their emissiosn still do not compare to the emissions that come from burning fossil fuels. See:

https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector

Three quarters of (CO2 adjusted) emissions come from energy production, the vast majority of which is by burning fossil fuels. Emissions from all of agriculture (farming and crops) are about 18%.

It is clear what is destroying the environment. But you and other vegans keep banging on and on about how it is meat that's destroying the environment. Why? You're just playing into the hands of the oil companies. And not only you're not doing anything to protect the environment, but by distracting from the real source of climate change, you're making it even harder to convince people to change their nature-destroying habbit of burning fossil fuels.

So, I'm sorry, but at this point I consider every vegan who tells me meat destroys the environment to be dishonest, unless they are an actual environmental activist, rather than a vegan activist (or just someone who likes to argue vegan on the internet).

> I eat food because it fills my belly, not because it looks good.

Why can't we fill our bellies with food that doesn't involve exploiting and killing other sentient animals?

If you have your own farm then ignore the above. It's a general question regarding the global food production. But not everyone can have their own farm - so that way of life is not scalable - if the majority of 9B people want to eat meat. It can only become sustainable, if it becomes extremely expensive and demand is curbed.

> And, no, you're never gonna get there with vegan nut paste Never say never - we humans are quite ingenious and finding ways to do things better.

> Highest- among all types of food we're currently producing. > I consider every vegan who tells me meat destroys the environment to be dishonest

It's not just GHG, but also:

- Greater water usage required for meat & dairy diet

- Biodiversity loss

- Deforestation

- Soil degradation

The IPCC recommends a shift towards a more plant-based diet to mitigate the climate crisis.

So are you calling hundreds of climate scientist dishonest? Here are plenty of resources to back up the claim that our current meat heavy diets are destructive and that a global shift to a plant-based diet is required to avert climate catastrophe. https://www.ipcc.ch/srccl/chapter/chapter-5/

Here are some quotes from experts in the field:

Dr Peter Carter, IPCC expert reviewer and Director of the Climate Emergency Institute stated: “The science is definite, global climate catastrophe cannot be averted without the elimination of meat and dairy in our diet, and that must happen fast.”

Courtney Vail, Campaign Director at Oceanic Preservation Society, added: “Changing our diets from a focus on animal-based to plant-based products is one of the most powerful things we can do to positively impact the world. Animal agriculture utilizes precious water resources, releases climate-altering greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, and reduces the planet’s ability to sequester carbon by destroying diverse ecosystems.”

> Why can't we fill our bellies with food that doesn't involve exploiting and killing other sentient animals?

Nah, you're moving the goal posts just to get a chance to say your little propaganda slogan. What I asked was: "I don't get why you have to eat fake food when you're vegan? ". You want to talk about that?

Because that's what I want to know. You don't want to eat meat? OK. You don't want to eat dairy? Then don't! But you want to eat fake cheese and fake meat? I mean, still, it's none of my business what you eat, knock yourself out. But, why? Fake is fake. It should be obvious why it's ... fake?

> So are you calling hundreds of climate scientist dishonest?

No, I'm calling you and other internet vegans dishonest, because you're using environmental issues as a cover to promote your vegan agenda.

Btw, "hundreds of climate scientists" don't say we should all go vegan to save the environment, like vegans like to pretend. The IPCC report you linked doesn't say anything like that. Environmental activists don't even say anything like that. What environmental scientists say is that a shift is needed towards a plant based diet. That is the kind of diet I eat: 2/3s plants and 1/3 animal foods (dairy, meat, seafood, etc).

But vegans like you are trying really hard to fudge the meaning of "plant-based" to make it synonymous with "vegan". And it's obvious why you're doing it: now all the environmental scientists who say a shift to a plant-based diet is needed are suddendly advocating for veganism!

That is the dishonesty I'm talking about. It's the same kind of dishonesty and the same kind of social engineering tactic as calling nut paste "cheese".

Well, your silly little games aren't paying off. Meat consumption keeps increasing. CAFOs keep getting built. Animals keep getting tortured. Scores of people sign up for Veganuary and go back to devouring burgers and sausages as soon as they have. Instagram is full of fashionable vegans and yet the vast majority of the population are not even vegetarian, not even flexitarian.

Dishonesty doesn't work. You can't have your cake and eat it. Either you tell people the truth, and nothing but the truth, and you hope they can do the right thing, or you keep lying and they keep ignoring you as extreme fanatical zealots.