Live data from Hacker News

We need a middle class for startups

neilthanedar.com

151–160 of 320 posts

Re: We need a middle class for startups

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"millions in revenue and a team of over 20" are not "Middle class"...

That’s about the scale of a single Jimmy John’s franchise location.

Yeah, this whole idea is ridiculous and wildly biased by the incredible over-valuations of some of these startups.

Re: We need a middle class for startups

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should add that you cap founder salaries at $250-$300k/year (if I remember your terms correctly) If you’re a founder looking at TinySeed, what this means is that if your business reaches a level of success you can pay yourself over $250k-$300k through your W-2, you’ll either have to cap it there or pay the rest through dividends. That said, this isn’t really a terrible setup if you plan to go down this route. The…

> IRS takes issue when tightly held C-corps pay themselves large amounts via W-2’s because they would want to reclassify those as dividends Isn’t dividend income taxed less than W-2 income?

Yes and no. It depends on what bracket you’re at on your income tax. It also depends on whether or not you’re factoring in corporate income tax too, which is paid before dividend distributions are made. For tightly held C-corps, you’d probably factor in the corp income tax since the concern would be about tax efficiency from revenue to dollars in your pocket.

Re: We need a middle class for startups

#153

I feel like this is just trying to rebrand “lifestyle businesses” or small businesses in general. Where I grew up it wasn’t uncommon for people to have businesses that did a few million in sales and the whole family worked at. While not as sexy as getting angel investment, it sustained a quality of life that met their needs. In order to run a successful business you don’t NEED mass profits or VC dollars.

This is where the term "Mittelstand" gets lost in translation, and speaks to the Author's point that the Americanized definition of start-up has become too polarized and absolute. It is neither a lifestyle business nor a shareholder-driven business.

Mittelstand doesnt even have agreed upon definition here in Germany. I've heard people call everything and anything that lies between your local mom and pop show and Volkswagen "mittelständisch".

My (very wrong) opinion on what Mittelstand is: I think of a small-to-medium sized company that manufactures (I've never thought of service providing companies as Mittelstand) one group of things at a very high and competitive level. I think of companies that are pretty much strictly B2B. These are mostly family-owned businesses, but for me that doesnt need to be true. Companies that you only know of, when you need to know. And when you do need to know about them, you most definitely will know about them.

Again, this definitely isnt what most people consider to be Mittelstand. Just my view on it.

Re: We need a middle class for startups

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question is why does everyone with the next CRUD SaaS app think they need to hire the “best people”? I’ve seen plenty of job openings where companies want “ninja rockstar 10x developers” to write what ends up being something that anyone who knows the latest MVC framework with three years of experience can do competently. And most “entrepreneurs” who own franchising are barely middle class and “bought a job”. The a…

> The average fast food franchise, convenient store averages about $70K a year. Where can I find industry stats to explore this assertion?

McDonalds is $150K in net profit after investing 2.7 million

https://www.mashed.com/178309/how-much-mcdonalds-franchise-o...

7-11 is between $50-$75K.

https://mobile-cuisine.com/franchise/7-eleven-cost/

Subway is about $40K a year

https://www.eposnow.com/us/resources/how-much-do-franchise-o...

Re: We need a middle class for startups

#155
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this would be much more healthy than the multi-phase aim-for-the-moon approach everybody takes today. Healthy for whom? - startups founders? - angel investors? - VCs? - national economy? - financial markets? - ...

Hum... I answered that just on the next phrase. But now that you enumerated more, you can add "national economy" too.

> Hum... I answered that just on the next phrase.

Concerning "And quite likely brings better results for both the investor and the founders.":

That "[it] brings better results" for some groups does not imply that it more healthy for this group. Also the other way round: "more healthy for some group" does not necessarily imply "better results for this group".

In this sense I did not think that this phrase was to be considered an answer to my point.

Re: We need a middle class for startups

#156

My key takeaways: 1. Remote work, no code, social media, and ecommerce platforms all make it easier to bootstrap new businesses from zero to revenue 2. (From Wikipedia) Mittelstand commonly refers to a group of stable business enterprises in Germany, Austria and Switzerland that have proved successful in enduring economic change and turbulence. The term is difficult to translate and may cause confusion for non-German…

The original article uses the plural too, Mittelstands, but it sounds really weird in German since it's more of mass noun (it's as if you referred to various pots of sugar as 'the sugars'). I believe the correct word would be Mittelständler, but if you're going to anglicize it, Mittelstanders would much better than Mittelstands in my opinion. Then again, I'm not a native speaker of either German or English...

Re: We need a middle class for startups

#157
post #44

As someone that has been working hard in this domain, there is one major problem to this in software. Initial funding. There is a lot of growth non dilutive capital available but the first 500k are near impossible to get without a network in old money. You used to raise that money through other local mittrlelstands. At the Masons lodge. At the local kiwanis or Rotary. But these have closed to young member decades ago…

No post body was provided.

Re: We need a middle class for startups

#158
post #9

I feel like this is just trying to rebrand “lifestyle businesses” or small businesses in general. Where I grew up it wasn’t uncommon for people to have businesses that did a few million in sales and the whole family worked at. While not as sexy as getting angel investment, it sustained a quality of life that met their needs. In order to run a successful business you don’t NEED mass profits or VC dollars.

Also there was a time when "lifestyle business" was getting shade as if it an inferior product for inferior people. I think that was probably just VC shade being thrown at it because they couldn't do anything with the kind of business. That and platforms probably ate away at their core offerings...

Might be an effort by VCs to sell their own lifestyle. "Start a company in your dorm and become a billionaire by 25." Is possibly more compelling than "Start a business that might make 5M a year in 10 years and then live a relaxing well funded life."

Re: We need a middle class for startups

#160
post #44

As someone that has been working hard in this domain, there is one major problem to this in software. Initial funding. There is a lot of growth non dilutive capital available but the first 500k are near impossible to get without a network in old money. You used to raise that money through other local mittrlelstands. At the Masons lodge. At the local kiwanis or Rotary. But these have closed to young member decades ago…

> The current young people simply are too unstable and too close to poverty to take the risks. One piece of the solution that is very clear to me and contains many other upsides is better access to healthcare. The fact that Americans mostly get healthcare through large corporate jobs significantly ratchets up the risk of entrepreneurialism. A better healthcare safety net would make it safer to leave the safe confines…

> better access to healthcare

If you are an entrepreneur under say 40, can’t you just roll a D10 and hope you don’t get a 1? Surely most people before middle-age won’t need expensive healthcare?

Post reply on HN