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Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

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Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#151

Post by Brian_K_White »

jwithington wrote: post #130
Boritanian wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>JAG >URL JOs >BAH if only i knew what any of those words mean. Why haven't people learned to describe their abbreviation unless they already pre-established that the audience will definitely know them?

Because I’m replying to someone who would know what those acronyms are. The ELI5 is that the Navy pays officers who do the core ship/flying activities quite well. Compared to their civilian peers, Navy lawyers, doctors, and cyber people don’t get paid well. The posted article is about rust on ships. A ships management team is paid well. Low pay is unlikely to be the cause of dissatisfaction. To be clear, “paid well”…

"Because I’m replying to someone who would know what those acronyms are."

That only flies in an email or on a specialized forum.

It's curious that you are smart enough to come up with an arguement yet apparently at the same time innocently simple enough not to know why it's invalid.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#152

Post by ethbr0 »

bell-cot wrote: post #109
ethbr0 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so? The only major warships the Navy operates are carriers (Nimitz, Ford), amphibious assault ships (Wasp, America), cruisers (Ticonderoga, the last of which was commissioned in 1994), and destroyers (Arleigh Burke, forthcoming DDGX). Ignoring the LCSs as a complete cluster#_$&. Maybe you're thinking of the Spearhead-class EPFs [0] and the issue with high sea states? But those were designed from the gro…

Probably the USS Independence - https://www.wired.com/2011/06/shipbuilder-blames-navy-as-bra... Not a capital ship, nor quickly written off - but 2,300 tons (light) is between the Allen M. Sumner- and Gearing-class (late WWII) destroyers. And "forgot that aluminum hull + steel propulsion hardware + salt water = galvanic corrosion" is a "never bothered to calculate GM" (the metacentric height) level of cluster#_$&'ing…

Thank god some common sense seems to have finally injected itself into the frigate endeavor via the Constellation pivot. Although we'll see how the engine development on those goes...

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#153

Post by rwmurrayVT »

Victerius wrote: post #13
mysterydip wrote: post #6

> "An AKE like the Shepard should have 129 crewmembers in perfect conditions but they are now running at roughly 80% because of manning problems,” said another MSC officer. “About 20 in the deck department can be assigned to rust prevent duty. However, that crew is also assigned to Underway Replenishment duties. Three Unreps could easily eat away an entire day. When we return to port can we OSPHO? No. Can I send a cr…

Manning problems have existed for a decade, if not more. The Navy holds the sad record of being the worst managed branch of service. Steep budget cuts in the 1990s and again during sequestration have had severe effects that the Navy hasn't yet recovered from. But I don't know whether that's the cause of the problem. The Navy is an especially unique branch given that it's the only service that revolves around a relati…

There is misery and there is hope.

The Navy has failed to accomplish the modpro packages on the current CGs & LSD, including Gettysburg, Vicksburg, and Tortuga. Those three I have personally been involved with in many ways. The 5XXX and structural work on the CG program has been wildly underestimated. The money for Tortuga was never there and as she lay idle in the shipyard problems grew. They are not simply east coast/BAE issues either. The issues repeat themselves here on the west coast at Vigor. It was a huge mistake to leave behind cost+ and switch to FFP. There is too much time lost to pointless contract fighting.

There is hope on the horizon with new subs and DDGx and FFG. Time will tell if the new build construction yields a new DDG1000/LCS or a workhorse like the earlier DDG flights.

As for corrosion it is a necessary evil. Too many armchair metallurgists point to various alloys as a solution. The ocean is cold, salty, and miserable. The planning yards, repair yards, and Navy are full of extremely bright and hardworking folks. It takes time and money to fight rust at sea and in port.

There's a big issue with manning on the civilian and Navy side. At the end of the day there are few people in my generation lining up to enlist or to do body-damaging labor. I can't say I blame them.. I became and engineer and then joined program management. Few in the yards want the same for their children as they had in their life. Those who are left are primarily 30+ years of experience or 1-5 years of experience looking to get out.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#154

Post by metaphor »

killjoywashere wrote: post #41
sevensor wrote: post #17

This looks like the same phenomenon as the crisis in staffing nurses that was discussed here the other day. Careerist, indifferent management giving the people on the front line inadequate resources and then blaming them when things start to look shabby, or when someone dies. Scapegoating the people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, who are tired, inadequately trained, and inured to a climate of normaliz…

As a Navy physician who has dealt with COVID and fatigue, I think the chronic low pay contributes to a lack of people which leads to overwork, exhaustion, a sort of "this is my lot in life" acceptance of mild to moderate depression. And you get to the point you just look away for your own sanity. Healthcare workers get paid less as you get closer to the coasts. And military gets only very modest pay adjustments for h…

> A colonel in Kansas may live like a king, but a captain in San Diego can't afford a house.

Assuming both sought living accomodations outside of free base housing, I was curious what those figures actually looked like[1]:

- O-6 colonel stationed at, e.g. Fort Riley, KS 66442, would draw up to an additional $1500 without dependents, $1911 with.

- O-6 captain stationed at, e.g. NAS North Island, CA 92135, would draw up to an additional $3342 without dependents, $4026 with.

It's worth mentioning for those unfamiliar that, just like BAS (i.e. food allowance), this BAH (i.e. housing allowance) is completely tax-exempt.

The game that active service members play here is to secure a home mortgage (often through VA home loan), then apply BAH directly towards monthly mortgage payments throughout service all the way to retirement. It's not hard to imagine other tax advantaged games to be played here. Applying BAH to rent a house off base is a naive fool's errand.

In terms of annual cost of living adjustments to base pay, uniformed service received +2.7% increase this year; in contrast, +2.2% for federal GS civilians. The year before that, it was +3% v. +1%. These adjustments have historically favored uniformed service over the federal civilians that work beside them. Sure, they're lowball relative to inflation, but that ought to be squared against military tax-exempt BAS/BAH and hugely subsidized commissary entitlements.

Exceptionally common amongst Navy personnel, married sailors typically draw an additional $250/mo family separation allowance[2] when out at sea for more than 30 continuous days. This will obviously have a greater financial impact amongst the enlisted ranks than officers. Depending on rank and job, there's a litany of allowances, bonuses and incentives (beyond the scope of this remark) that are often ignored when the conversation of military service compensation is brought up...nevermind that no one ever talks about the opportunity to retire with guaranteed pension + benefits for life as young as 38.

As an outsider, I'm inclined to agree that military health professions do seem to pay a substantial indirect opportunity cost despite the unique bonuses they're entitled to[3].

I do wonder what individual circumstances led you to choose a Navy commission over everything else?

[1] https://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/site/bahCalc.cfm

[2] https://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/fsa/

[3] https://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/Pay-Tab...

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#155

Post by unethical_ban »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #151
jwithington wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I’m replying to someone who would know what those acronyms are. The ELI5 is that the Navy pays officers who do the core ship/flying activities quite well. Compared to their civilian peers, Navy lawyers, doctors, and cyber people don’t get paid well. The posted article is about rust on ships. A ships management team is paid well. Low pay is unlikely to be the cause of dissatisfaction. To be clear, “paid well”…

"Because I’m replying to someone who would know what those acronyms are." That only flies in an email or on a specialized forum. It's curious that you are smart enough to come up with an arguement yet apparently at the same time innocently simple enough not to know why it's invalid.

>That only flies in an email or on a specialized forum.

Counterpoint: It doesn't.

They made a reply to a military member on a thread about military equipment. Googling a few acronyms + "military" would surely lead one to the answer.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#156

Post by nradov »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #94
Victerius wrote: post #7

The Navy builds its ships with steel, and the grades of steel used in the construction can experience rust. Solutions: Switch to 100% stainless steel. Stainless steel is an alloy and contains a minimum of 11% chromium. This allows the formation of a protective film of chromium oxide which acts as a shield against rust. The protective film will re-form if damaged. Corrosion resistance can be further enhanced with the…

Wood is also corrosion resistant, maybe they could make the ships out of wood. /s

The US Navy literally built some ships out of wood up through 1994. Those were minesweepers where minimizing the magnetic signature was more important than strength or corrosion resistance.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#157

Post by the__alchemist »

kingcharles wrote: post #133
indymike wrote: post #124

Former Navy (nuclear propulsion) here. That by no means makes me an expert, by I will share a couple of thoughts: Ships rust. Officers don't chip paint and paint. Technical enlisted and NCOs don't chip paint and paint either. Junior, and especially unrated (not trained in a vocational area yet) enlisted do. This looks like a simple case of being undermanned, and/or having "too many chiefs and not enough braves". Real…

I totally agree. Surface ships are now just sitting ducks. Does the US have more carriers under construction? You need carriers to launch planes, but I guess the future could be quadcopter drones launched from subs?

Why do you figure quads over fixed/wing or VTOL? Quads, compared to every other propulsion model, are inefficient. What you buy is mechanical simplicity, and its associated durability/repair-ability.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#158

Post by unethical_ban »

epolanski wrote: post #18
newsclues wrote: post #8

I think this is a good lesson that can be applied to offices and data centres. If you run your teams and equipment beyond the threshold, your equipment and team will suffer and degrade your abilities. This is a failure of leadership, and it was avoidable!

I also like the part of looking sharp, this is also a non-zero factor in any field, including IT. Between two professionals, if one looks sharp, clean and fit, while the other one does not, it is hard not to conclude one has also more self discipline.

There are dozens of us!

While I have certainly seen idiots with nice clothes make bad decisions in management, I do think that all things being equal, some level of professionalism is beneficial to an environment. Attitude and aptitude are critical, and I think dress can help the former.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#160

Post by jwithington »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #151
jwithington wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I’m replying to someone who would know what those acronyms are. The ELI5 is that the Navy pays officers who do the core ship/flying activities quite well. Compared to their civilian peers, Navy lawyers, doctors, and cyber people don’t get paid well. The posted article is about rust on ships. A ships management team is paid well. Low pay is unlikely to be the cause of dissatisfaction. To be clear, “paid well”…

"Because I’m replying to someone who would know what those acronyms are." That only flies in an email or on a specialized forum. It's curious that you are smart enough to come up with an arguement yet apparently at the same time innocently simple enough not to know why it's invalid.

lol I feel like this debate plays out at least weekly in a HN thread about a subculture, specialty, etc.
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