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Public Money, Public Code

publiccode.eu

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Re: Public Money, Public Code

#151

Post by jonhohle »

machinerychorus wrote: post #26
postalrat wrote: post #10

The state I lived in developed one of those covid tracking apps. I asked for the source code and was told it wasn't available and would never be. I talked to people working on other software developed for the state and they all think that software shouldn't be public. It seems crazy to me that taxpayers pay for this software but it doesn't belong to them. Knowing what I do know I gotta wonder if it's just about those…

I was tangentially related to the covid app stuff so I can offer some insight there: most of those apps weren't built by the state. Google provided an open-source "base app" that could be customized by the states, but most states hired third-party contractors to build an app for them. I've worked in public sector and this is typical. the states can't open source it because they don't own it, they just pay a third-par…

> This is touted as "small govt"

Small government doesn’t have anything to do with outsourcing functions. Small government is about not doing those things to begin with.

There is definitely a case to be made for a government, big or small, tracking a pandemic. I’m not arguing it shouldn’t. Outsourcing that function to a contractor, however, does not “shrink” the role of government.

Re: Public Money, Public Code

#152

Post by toolz »

machinerychorus wrote: post #26
postalrat wrote: post #10

The state I lived in developed one of those covid tracking apps. I asked for the source code and was told it wasn't available and would never be. I talked to people working on other software developed for the state and they all think that software shouldn't be public. It seems crazy to me that taxpayers pay for this software but it doesn't belong to them. Knowing what I do know I gotta wonder if it's just about those…

I was tangentially related to the covid app stuff so I can offer some insight there: most of those apps weren't built by the state. Google provided an open-source "base app" that could be customized by the states, but most states hired third-party contractors to build an app for them. I've worked in public sector and this is typical. the states can't open source it because they don't own it, they just pay a third-par…

> This is touted as "small govt", but it really just makes things less efficient. The total number of people involved stays the same.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you suggesting big government is more efficient than small government? If so I wonder if there are some good examples of that, because previously I wasn't aware anyone would ever argue that could be the case.

Re: Public Money, Public Code

#153

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

worik wrote: post #44
machinerychorus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was tangentially related to the covid app stuff so I can offer some insight there: most of those apps weren't built by the state. Google provided an open-source "base app" that could be customized by the states, but most states hired third-party contractors to build an app for them. I've worked in public sector and this is typical. the states can't open source it because they don't own it, they just pay a third-par…

> but most states hired third-party contractors to build an app for them. So the states paid the bills so can license the result any way they want. How can they pay for something and not own it? Sounds to me like there are deep corruption problems

Of course. I have some experience(though old and long ago) with communal and governmental ICT operations. But also "the other side" :-) We have a saying here which goes like Government money is stupid money, meaning the government is stupid and pays anything. Then you close shop, and start another. For another round of stupid government money. And it doesn't even blink if it sees your name again, why should it? It's another business entity.

From what I hear it has changed just a little bit, not much, though. It also depends on state and town.

Speaking for .de and North-Rhine-Westfalia from 1994 to 2001 here.

Re: Public Money, Public Code

#154

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

KarlKemp wrote: post #105
postalrat wrote: post #10

The state I lived in developed one of those covid tracking apps. I asked for the source code and was told it wasn't available and would never be. I talked to people working on other software developed for the state and they all think that software shouldn't be public. It seems crazy to me that taxpayers pay for this software but it doesn't belong to them. Knowing what I do know I gotta wonder if it's just about those…

The German version is at https://github.com/corona-warn-app . It was expensive (18 million Euros I believe, but may be wrong). But other than that, it was excellent from start to finish. First release a few weeks after the API was available. The source was divided into logical components of more or less perfect size, it was straightforward, well commented, responsive to PRs, worked, and had no security issues as far…

Hrm. Why tee eff shops downtown insisted on that Luca thing with Smudos blessing instead? PR? Federalism? Panic? Incompetence?

Re: Public Money, Public Code

#155

Post by sonicggg »

pooper wrote: post #61
HideousKojima wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My most recent job was for a local government, and even though I made a push for open sourcing our code, I never made much headway. Plus, literally all of the other devs on my team repeatedly committed secure credentials to git no matter how many times I tried to teach them how to use a .gitignore file, so it could have been a bit disastrous if my efforts had actually made any headway

> Plus, literally all of the other devs on my team repeatedly committed secure credentials to git no matter how many times I tried to teach them how to use a .gitignore file Why do they even need to have access to production secure credentials during development? Why not let them fall into the "pit of success" so local development never talks to a production server anywhere?

If it's hard enough for to tech companies to hire skilled developers, I can only imagine what the bar is for public work. They might even resort to hire some brain damaged people.

Re: Public Money, Public Code

#156

Post by 3np »

toolz wrote: post #152
machinerychorus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was tangentially related to the covid app stuff so I can offer some insight there: most of those apps weren't built by the state. Google provided an open-source "base app" that could be customized by the states, but most states hired third-party contractors to build an app for them. I've worked in public sector and this is typical. the states can't open source it because they don't own it, they just pay a third-par…

> This is touted as "small govt", but it really just makes things less efficient. The total number of people involved stays the same. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you suggesting big government is more efficient than small government? If so I wonder if there are some good examples of that, because previously I wasn't aware anyone would ever argue that could be the case.

The way I'm reading it, no, that's not what they're saying. Govt doing the same things but having them done by contractors does not make it "smaller".

Re: Public Money, Public Code

#157

Post by chrismcb »

toolz wrote: post #152
machinerychorus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was tangentially related to the covid app stuff so I can offer some insight there: most of those apps weren't built by the state. Google provided an open-source "base app" that could be customized by the states, but most states hired third-party contractors to build an app for them. I've worked in public sector and this is typical. the states can't open source it because they don't own it, they just pay a third-par…

> This is touted as "small govt", but it really just makes things less efficient. The total number of people involved stays the same. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you suggesting big government is more efficient than small government? If so I wonder if there are some good examples of that, because previously I wasn't aware anyone would ever argue that could be the case.

In this case, yes the OPs argument is "small" gvt is less efficient. Except what the OP considers small government isn't actually small government. As far as efficiency goes. It depends. If you are a business you can do something in house or outsource it. Which is more efficient? If what needs to be done is a one of thing and neither party has the expertise then out sourcing is less efficient. As the amount of work that needs to be done is the same plus there is the additional overhead of the contract. The thing is, there was other variables that come into play, so it is difficult to say which way is better.

But small vs big government isn't really about the number of employees but rather what the government does.

Re: Public Money, Public Code

#158

Post by throwawaygh »

jonhohle wrote: post #151
machinerychorus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was tangentially related to the covid app stuff so I can offer some insight there: most of those apps weren't built by the state. Google provided an open-source "base app" that could be customized by the states, but most states hired third-party contractors to build an app for them. I've worked in public sector and this is typical. the states can't open source it because they don't own it, they just pay a third-par…

> This is touted as "small govt" Small government doesn’t have anything to do with outsourcing functions. Small government is about not doing those things to begin with. There is definitely a case to be made for a government, big or small, tracking a pandemic. I’m not arguing it shouldn’t. Outsourcing that function to a contractor, however, does not “shrink” the role of government.

Small government is absolutely the pretense.

The contracts go to software/it services companies that are connected at the state government level. WWT comes to mind.

Re: Public Money, Public Code

#159

Post by jtcruthers »

HWR_14 wrote: post #141
worik wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but most states hired third-party contractors to build an app for them. So the states paid the bills so can license the result any way they want. How can they pay for something and not own it? Sounds to me like there are deep corruption problems

> So the states paid the bills so can license the result any way they want. > > How can they pay for something and not own it? Try buying a copy of Adobe Software[1], and then hosting the *.isos on your website. You paid for it, you should get to do it! The short answer is, it costs more to buy 100% of the rights, and governments rarely do so. [1] It'd have to be older Adobe Software, as modern Adobe Software is all…

If I commissioned Adobe Software to write a program, from scratch, that I specifically state I will own all rights to the program and source code itself, then I would fully expect to license it how I want.

We are not talking about a single consumer. We are talking about the state itself. They will get the license they want if they believe it is needed.

Re: Public Money, Public Code

#160

Post by Drblessing »

giobox wrote: post #21

I've often wondered if we need to radically change the State's relationship with the software it produces. As Robert Lessig famously observed, "code is law" in a world controlled by computers. There is increasingly a strong argument I feel in States directly employing software engineers much like they typically employ armies of civil servants to implement policy. Why is software treated as something to be outsourced…

Imagine the government trying to develop software.

Thanks, I needed a laugh.

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