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Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

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Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#151

Post by cyral »

psyc wrote: post #84
lin83 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon's attempts to get users to unwittingly sign up to Prime is one of the most egregious examples I encounter on a regular basis. As a European I cannot wait to see it gone.

After the last iOS update, Apple nagged the shit out of me to setup Apple Pay, for two days. No way to say ‘fuck off’ - only ‘remind me’. No obvious way to stop the nagging. Finally I gave them just the tip, and then pulled out before the money shot, and that seems to have shut them up for now.

Apple Pay is legitimately useful though. You can use it to pay at physical businesses if you forget your wallet (double click and face ID to turn your phone into a "tap to pay" card basically). There are also lots of apps/sites that support it so you don't have to type in your card number or even your shipping info sometimes.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#152

Post by jdrc »

Requiring an alternative to algorithmic sorting (chronological) is good even though most sites do it already. "Explaining the algorithms" sounds like an impossible-to-implement, feel-good clause.

Requiring transparency for bans and censorship though will probably have a major effect if people start asking nosy questions and exposing corporate and government abuses of power. Many EU governments will regret that users can expose them , that will be fun to watch. It will also make it very hard for companies like reddit to function: could reddit be legally liable for actions of its moderators?

the other clauses are the typical wishful thinking by EU legislators who think that you can legislate the solution to unsolved or unsolvable tech problems

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#153

Post by mediascreen »

Epa095 wrote: post #136
ernirulez wrote: post #132

EU is becoming more like an authoritarian state. They put constraints on companies but allow governments to have full control and surveillance over their citizens. It's so hopocrit

I don't see how it's hypocritical to give democratically elected governments different possibilities that random private companies. It's government's job to put constraints on companies, stopping them from becoming the absolute assholes they become if they have no limitations. That does not make them authoritarian.

Sure. On the other hand you can usually chose which companies to interact with. When it comes to governments the relationship is not optional. Your government usually have more ways to affekt your life than most private companies has (like no fly lists).

A few years ago the true extent of the Swedish program for tracking left wing sympathisers became known. It ran from the sixties up until 1998. For example, if your car was seen outside of a left wing publication you could end up on a list somewhere. That caused you to be automatically excluded from 5-10% of all jobs without you never finding out about it until 20-30 years afterwards. Imagine wanting to become a police officer, a pilot or and engineer and never understanding that the reason you didn't get an interview was because you had parked in the wrong spot one day years before. Or that your sister briefly dated a left wing journalist at some point.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#154

Post by jumpifzero »

In principle looks good but lots of potential for going wrong.

Just hope this doesn't backfire. The cookie law was also a thing the EU created with good intentions after some politicians decided "omg cookies are bad" and we ended up still using cookies but pop-ups in every single website basically forcing you to accept the use of cookies.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#155

Post by jdrc »

swayvil wrote: post #27

I see a vast technical writing documentation project in their future.

But they must be short and easy to understand by users. Like this:

"Our algorithms use gradient descent. Data flows through our connected tubes, slowly wiggling their size until the data starts flows back and forth faster."

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#156

Post by 3a2d29 »

jdrc wrote: post #152

Requiring an alternative to algorithmic sorting (chronological) is good even though most sites do it already. "Explaining the algorithms" sounds like an impossible-to-implement, feel-good clause. Requiring transparency for bans and censorship though will probably have a major effect if people start asking nosy questions and exposing corporate and government abuses of power. Many EU governments will regret that users…

To add to this, I wonder how "explaining the algorithm" will work with algorithms that are trained with ML. Essentially they are black boxes, right? So as a tech company, would I have to just say what my best guess is on how it works?

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#157

Post by jdrc »

3a2d29 wrote: post #156
jdrc wrote: post #152

Requiring an alternative to algorithmic sorting (chronological) is good even though most sites do it already. "Explaining the algorithms" sounds like an impossible-to-implement, feel-good clause. Requiring transparency for bans and censorship though will probably have a major effect if people start asking nosy questions and exposing corporate and government abuses of power. Many EU governments will regret that users…

To add to this, I wonder how "explaining the algorithm" will work with algorithms that are trained with ML. Essentially they are black boxes, right? So as a tech company, would I have to just say what my best guess is on how it works?

"gradient descent" should be enough

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#158

Post by imiric »

alwayslikethis wrote: post #139
layer8 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t count on sites not tracking you until you actually saved your “custom preferences”.

Of course you can't. My recommendation: 1. Install "I don't care about cookies" 2. Install "Temporary containers" This requires that you use special containers for things you do wish to have cookies for such as HN for the login. Other than that, you can safely click accept for all websites, since it won't persist anyways.

Extensions aren't a reliable solution to privacy and security. Why would you give access to all websites you visit to a 3rd party? I barely trust browser developers these days, let alone some 3rd party developer.

And, no, I can't be bothered to review their source code if it's available, or to trust that I'm actually running said code, that it won't become malicious eventually or bother with building it myself. Unless it's run on demand and for a single purpose, I suggest avoiding extensions altogether.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#159

Post by alwayslikethis »

imiric wrote: post #158
alwayslikethis wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you can't. My recommendation: 1. Install "I don't care about cookies" 2. Install "Temporary containers" This requires that you use special containers for things you do wish to have cookies for such as HN for the login. Other than that, you can safely click accept for all websites, since it won't persist anyways.

Extensions aren't a reliable solution to privacy and security. Why would you give access to all websites you visit to a 3rd party? I barely trust browser developers these days, let alone some 3rd party developer. And, no, I can't be bothered to review their source code if it's available, or to trust that I'm actually running said code, that it won't become malicious eventually or bother with building it myself. Unles…

Containers is a Firefox native feature. The temporary containers extension simply creates and destroys them on demand.

I understand the criticism though - increased attack surface. But the Web is pretty much a lost cause anyways.

https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reckless-limitless-scope....

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#160

Post by HWR_14 »

frereubu wrote: post #142

IANAL, so happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that EU and US law work in quite different ways. EU law sets general rules, and law courts decide what that means with reference to existing legal precendents. US law is very, very specific about what each clause means and how it should be interpreted. Every time I see these kinds of discussions I wonder if quite a few of the disagreements are due to e.g. US co…

The US has federal law that apply to all the states. The EU has binding resolutions (the general rules you mentioned), and then each nation passes its own implementation. It's similar to the US federal RealID act which set standards for licenses that the states could implement however they wanted.
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