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The Shaming-Industrial Complex

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151–155 of 155 posts

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#151
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being against showing off shallow acts of goodness done only for clout is not the same as being against good things happening.

I know. But I assume they're strongly correlated. I.e. people who are against virture signaling want to get rid of it, because they got nothing to signal, and it makes them look bad in relation.

> But I assume they're strongly correlated.

Well, they I assume they aren't. I assume my assumption is more likely than your assumption. You should not just assume things and build your worldview from them.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sentiment is often voiced on HN and I don't understand it. Somehow the statement "other people have a different opinion from yours" is used as an argument for why some person's opinion can't be right (or more right, or something). That's not only demonstrably false in lots of cases, it also doesn't advance discourse because now we're talking about potentially fictitious people with potentially fictitious beliefs…

> This sentiment is often voiced on HN and I don't understand it Note that the sentiment is "condescension is not empathy", and empathy is what you need to approach this problem. > I claim that it's perfectly legitimate to think that certain other people are ill-equipped to make certain decisions. You then condescend. You are superior, the "general public" is too dumb ("ill-equipped") to "make certain decisions". > T…

> Note that the sentiment is "condescension is not empathy", and empathy is what you need to approach this problem.

I consider that an unproven assertion. A certain amount of empathy is certainly necessary to have a functioning society. But it doesn't seem to be the case that everyone has to be empathetic with everyone, and I don't think humanity has ever been at that or ever will be at that stage.

But even beyond that, "empathy" doesn't mean that you think everyone's opinion is equally right. Sometimes, empathy involves giving people hard truths that they may find hard to accept, but will be better for them long term.

> You then condescend. You are superior, the "general public" is too dumb ("ill-equipped") to "make certain decisions".

It's only condescending if you consider people's inherent worth to be tied to their intelligence or judgement. But that's something I disagree with: people who are right more often than others aren't morally superior, or inherently more worthy, or anything. They're simply right more often and it's therefore rational to listen to them more often.

Also note that I didn't say "dumb", that's your interpretation. Smart people have biases too, and being well- or ill-informed about a topic is not necessarily correlated to intelligence.

The general public is ill-equipped to decide whether P=NP or the Riemann hypothesis are true. That seems hardly controversial (and yet math departments continue to receive "proofs" of these statements from complete amateurs that usually don't even understand the problem correctly).

> How would you know? You simply feel they are ill-informed, but it doesn't mean that they are.

You never know anything, except for the fact that you exist. But that's not a reasonable state of being. At some point you have to start trusting your own judgement, especially when you know that you've done the research. That there are other people who disagree with your judgement doesn't fundamentally change that.

> By assuming (implicitly) that you must be correct, you deny them the agency of figuring things out for themselves: Clearly they cannot have done so, they are simply too wrong.

No, you're misunderstanding me. I don't claim that I'm a priori correct and that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong (if anything, I would consider my opinions to be more or less strong priors). That would indeed be ludicrous. But I do examine the arguments of other people, and in some cases have to come to the conclusion that they're a) factually wrong, or b) their argument doesn't make logical sense.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#153
post #37
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, it may well be maladaptive at the scale of global society There is a pretty good argument that it is maladaptive in any community bigger than a few hundred people. The most successful political innovations - legislative bodies & courts - have both taken strong measures to make it difficult to shame people into cooperation or provide effective ways to fight back against a shaming. Good political decisions c…

> The most successful political innovations - legislative bodies & courts - have both taken strong measures to make it difficult to shame people into cooperation ?!? Legislative bodies used to rely on shame (the opposite of honor) as a means of enforcing unwritten rules. It used to be possible to shame politicians into resigning when they'd crossed a line. “Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?” -- Joe Wel…

McCarthy was censured by the Senate.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#154
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not an ideology - acknowledging the nuances of the actual debate (trans vs women sports) is basic courtesy. Deliberately ignoring it multiple times is malicious.

Some would say giving a deliberately simple statement like the parent commentator's the interpretation most offensive to you is evidence of malicious intent.

What are you even talking about? Did you read OP's statement?

> We are now at a stage where a twitter mob would see "men should not be allowed to compete in women's sports" as a bigoted statement.

This is clearly referring to the present day public debate of whether trans-people should be allowed to participate in men/women sporting.

If you think I'm wrong, could you point me to the ongoing non-trans-related debate regarding men vs women sports?

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#155
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some would say giving a deliberately simple statement like the parent commentator's the interpretation most offensive to you is evidence of malicious intent.

What are you even talking about? Did you read OP's statement? > We are now at a stage where a twitter mob would see "men should not be allowed to compete in women's sports" as a bigoted statement. This is clearly referring to the present day public debate of whether trans-people should be allowed to participate in men/women sporting. If you think I'm wrong, could you point me to the ongoing non-trans-related debate r…

>What are you even talking about? We lack the shared language for me to explain it simply, but I might be able to get there if you're engaging in good faith. Unfortunately your response comes across as evidence that you're not. If you are engaging in good faith and actually want an answer, tell me whether you think men (by your preferred definition) should be allowed to compete in women's (by your preferred definition) sports.
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