Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate • Hacker News Board

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#151

Post by mlyle » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #98

akvadrako wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such a system in the long run, it's called the free market. If you can consistently outperform your peers while both parties have complete information, it's a sign of having some advantage. Free markets are never perfect locally, but on a galactic scale they are pretty close, so the superior groups and will dominate.

Actually, free markets are only efficient if p=np. (They are not strong form efficient, that was disproven long ago, and are only weak form efficient if p=np) Unfortunately, this hasn't stopped people from believing in them anyway, because they really really want them to work, and people "feel" like they should

They still outperform other mechanisms we have of resource allocation. They're massively parallel systems with ample signaling of different agents' state.

And the worst corner cases of externalities can be mostly offset with proper regulation, even if we struggle to do it.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#152

Post by anon946 » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

As a professor, this completely resonates with me. For example, I take attendance and make it 5% of the grade. Then I give 5 free days and am generous with absences due to whatever. Why? Because it's a nudge for many students to get them to come to class, which makes them stay engaged, and ultimately get a better grade.

(The other reason I take attendance is so that I can recognize at least most of them by mid-semester, so can call on them by name when they raise their hand.)

And I'm often torn with taking points off for submitting work late. On one hand, why should it matter exactly when they submitted the work, if it's good work? On the other hand, I know that if I just said that there's no late penalty, some significant fraction of the students would wait till the end of the semester, then realize that they haven't been keeping up, then create headaches for everyone involved, including themselves.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#153

Post by djoldman » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

Theres much to talk about here.

A lot of this is sensitive to context. Students in high school, college, and grad school have different levels of maturity. There are also different incentives for each setting.

I would say that high school and college students are more similar than grad students though.

Perhaps more important is the fact that the power the teachers have in each setting is different as well: high school teachers have little power whereas college professors have much more leeway in designing and grading their courses.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#154

Post by caddemon » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

r_hoods_ghost wrote: post #65

jjj123 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could call it unwilling to work hard. Or it could be difficulty prioritizing work, or ADHD, or disorganization. Are those traits what we’re testing for, or are we testing for knowledge of the subject?

I know this is harsh but if you have ADHD, difficulty prioritizing work or are disorganised to the extent that you can't perform academically at the required level to complete a degree then you shouldn't be wasting your money and time going to university and should instead look for something that better suits your talents.

I see where you are coming from in that there is only so much burden on the teacher that would be reasonable accommodation. However I think it comes across as harsh because many of these students could successfully complete a degree if they received adequate treatment from a healthcare provider.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#155

Post by analog31 » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

neap24 wrote: post #27

As a teacher (CS and Math) for over a decade, I agree with much of this. I will only add that, as far as grading is concerned, I think the long-term incentive for the teacher is actually to put almost no effort in at all. There is no pay or status increase for teachers who are tough, consistent graders. In fact, some of the most revered teachers I’ve known essentially hand hold their students to a guaranteed A in the…

When I was an adjunct (EE and Math), it was widely known amongst all of the teachers, that the student evaluation scores were primarily a measure of what grades the students expected. And I had to ask myself: If I were a student again, why would I adopt any other strategy?

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#156

Post by notriddle » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:23 PM UTC

jhanschoo wrote: post #127

warner25 wrote: post #10

I've often thought the same thing about becoming an adult, especially a parent, in general. There are so many choices that I harshly judged older people for making (how to allocate their time and money, where to live, what to allow or not allow the kids to do, how to behave at work, etc.) that I now find myself making as a married guy in my mid-30s with four kids. It makes me sad, but on each point I'm like, "Oh, now…

On the other hand, this observation must be qualified as not necessarily generalizable to all teenagers and parents. Sometimes a person may grow up and realize that their parents were indeed quite lacking, and be right in that assessment. I think this other circumstance is important to at least mention because children of objectively lacking parents can have doubts in their mind about their own judgment. In part beca…

Older people knowing better than younger people is one of those heuristics that's almost always right [1]. It's hard to tell the difference between a stupid kid and a stupid parent, because stupid parents are rare. Yet people keep searching for stupid parents, because it's really important to find them when they exist. There's a constant rate of kids pulling false alarms on their parents, but you don't want to ignore them, because if one of them is for real, you don't want to be the asshole that ignored all the warning signs.

[1]: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/heuristics-that-almost...

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#157

Post by hajile » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:23 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #7

This problem isn't a teaching problem. Evaluating someone's skills in any respect or context is basically an intractable problem. Interviewing, school, job performance, etc. etc. If there were an organization that could "perfectly" evaluate people's skills in a fixed period of time it would quickly become the top, and eventually only company. It would use its own skills in order to remove low performers, perfectly fr…

In ancient times, all final exams would be oral ones in front of a panel of teachers. I'd guess that this technique would be pretty successful today too.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#158

Post by leetrout » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

anon946 wrote: post #152

As a professor, this completely resonates with me. For example, I take attendance and make it 5% of the grade. Then I give 5 free days and am generous with absences due to whatever. Why? Because it's a nudge for many students to get them to come to class, which makes them stay engaged, and ultimately get a better grade. (The other reason I take attendance is so that I can recognize at least most of them by mid-semest…

I ran my class like a job (senior level interactive media). We had assignments with deadlines and I did PR reviews.

Deadlines are deadlines. Cut scope, features, etc but absolutely no late work.

You can guess how it went.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#159

Post by ksml » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #102

> But some are an assault on reason, with every word of the assignment creatively misinterpreted. It was never stated which temperature circuit to build or how to prove it works or what level of explanation was necessary. And who’s to say what “build” means? You have to think like a software engineer. Test first: write the requirements fro the perspective of a test which fails if the requirements are not met. Rather…

It's a silly exaggerated example. Point still stands, at least from my experience. Even with a rubric, people still (intentionally or unintentionally) find ways to do things that circumvent the learning goals/outcomes of the assignment

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#160

Post by antishatter » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

warner25 wrote: post #10

I've often thought the same thing about becoming an adult, especially a parent, in general. There are so many choices that I harshly judged older people for making (how to allocate their time and money, where to live, what to allow or not allow the kids to do, how to behave at work, etc.) that I now find myself making as a married guy in my mid-30s with four kids. It makes me sad, but on each point I'm like, "Oh, now…

I like myself.