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Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

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Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#151
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Freedom of speech is freedom from government censorship, not private censorship." I really detest this line of thought. What good are the concept of human rights when people declare that private companies by definition cannot infringe on them?

Because your rights end where other peoples' begins, and controlling what a company allows or doesn't allow on its platform is compelled speech, which is unconstitutional in the US. For example, a baker has the right to censor you by not allowing you to order a cake that says "Heil Hitler" on it.

This is not about the US and you are misinterpreting the baker's Supreme Court case anyways

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#152
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone wants to watch Russian propaganda or RT, they should be free to do so. Just like you are free to browse western media sites. This choice should be up to the individual and their beliefs.

Yeah let people consume junk all they want. Just don’t be surprised when Jan 6th happens again.

Lol, yeah January 6th truly is the important event here. Truly the benchmark for the worse that could happen. What a completely self centered comment, like I'm sorry but you realize we are talking about a war and you still managed to bring up January 6th as if that was even remotely comparable or similar to what is currently happening?

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#153
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone wants to watch Russian propaganda or RT, they should be free to do so. Just like you are free to browse western media sites. This choice should be up to the individual and their beliefs.

Yeah let people consume junk all they want. Just don’t be surprised when Jan 6th happens again.

Yes, because the protests on January 6th were literally the worst thing to ever happen in the United States, way worse than 9/11 or the Japanese Bombing of Pearl Harbour. Kamala Harris and Joe Biden told me so. January 6th was WAY WORSE than the riots and arson that took place in multiple cities the previous summer. Those were "mostly peaceful" where as the Boomers on Jan. 6th are terrorists and should be held without trial indefinitely.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#154
post #131

No. You have misunderstood. For starters, it'd be hard to argue that RT is "operating" within the EU if the only way to access their content was via TOR. It's not; you can still just view their website as far as my colleagues are telling me. The thing that's being denied here is their ability to operating business and broadcast - already a very highly regulated thing in most (all?) countries, within EU borders. In pr…

You seem overly focused on the term "broadcast" while the text of the law seems to pretty explicitly include any means of distribution, including video hosting sites, video watching apps (including P2P?) And ISPs: > transmission or distribution by any means such as cable, satellite, IP-TV, internet service providers, internet video-sharing platforms or applications, whether new or pre-installed. Since this is a legal…

I specifically wasn't solely focused on that, in fact that's pretty clear from what you're responding to regarding ISPs and freedom of access.

    > transmission or distribution by any means such as cable, satellite, IP-TV, internet service providers, internet video-sharing platforms or applications, whether new or pre-installed.

    Since this is a legal obligation, I fail so see how EU protections against ISP censorship would apply.
It really hinges on whether you believe the law is saying "transmission or distribution" here means that you cannot under any circumstances allow a user to access the content. This language is specific and I don't believe has ever been used in the EU to mean that.

My read on this is that this is designed to prevent situations where ISP, cable, satellite, et. al. providers have more direct involvement in its transmission or distribution. Consider cases where companies offer a streaming service that sometimes includes news channels (e.g.: Netflix), or ISPs that offer their own streaming services doing the same. In those cases, those companies are taking an active role in deploying the content, so they would fall under the umbrella of transmitting or distributing it.

     The "court order blocking illegal content" is an example, not an exhaustive list of the ways a legal obligation to censorship could pertain. 
This is why I linked the regulatory article itself.

This is also in the context of a blog post wondering if TOR is now illegal because of this. Would that make VPNs illegal as well? How would the EU even consider shutting down VPN service providers in other countries?

I will gladly stand corrected on this if I'm wrong and the ultimate result here is that RT becomes inaccessible to the EU based on this law.

However, it will not affect TOR any more than it would affect VPN providers, anyone offering VPS services, etc.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#155
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Freedom of speech is freedom from government censorship, not private censorship." I really detest this line of thought. What good are the concept of human rights when people declare that private companies by definition cannot infringe on them?

Because your rights end where other peoples' begins, and controlling what a company allows or doesn't allow on its platform is compelled speech, which is unconstitutional in the US. For example, a baker has the right to censor you by not allowing you to order a cake that says "Heil Hitler" on it.

> "Because your rights end where other peoples' begins"

Understandable, but what happens when rights conflict in the other direction? Why doesn't my ISP's right to block access to parts of the Web end where my right to consume information begins? Why do we place more importance on the 'rights' of an abstract non-living corporation above the rights of actual citizens?

> "what a company allows or doesn't allow on its platform is compelled speech"

Would this make things like Net Neutrality and public broadcasting laws likewise unconstitutional? The government always requires this for several things deemed to be in the public square. I see no flaw in bringing parts of the Internet's infrastructure into it.

> "a baker has the right to censor you"

Scale and scope matters. We're not talking about a mom and pop shop choosing not to do business with you, we're talking about multi-million and multi-billion dollar companies.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#156
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your point? That Russia state TV should be available everywhere so everyone can watch Russian propaganda?

Yes. One man's "propaganda" is another man's news. It's an assault on Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press. I also note other news networks have been happily spouting anti-Russian propaganda as well (i.e. "Ghost of Kiev", "Miss Ukraine Fighting", and the "Snake Island Martyrs" to name but 3). I also note none of the Western Media talk about shelling, murder, and rape of the ethnic Russian civilians in the Donba…

> News shouldn't have bias, full stop.

Sorry, but this sort of absolutist thinking is just naive. Nobody ever won a Pulitzer Prize in journalism for "just reporting the facts, full stop". Good journalism requires context which is messy and, indeed, political.

That said, propaganda isn't good journalism – it doesn't provide context so much as manufacture it. That isn't to suggest that propaganda is necessarily obvious. Bias lies on a spectrum, with facts-only reporting on one end and propaganda on the other. But just because grey areas exist doesn't prevent us from identifying the black.

It would be illegal, for example, for a publication to knowingly engage in defamation. As a society, we recognize that a publication's right to freedom of expression does not outweigh the harm dealt to an individual subjected to baseless harassment. Similarly, if a "news" organization is so divorced from the facts as to make its audience more ignorant of the actual happenings, then we as a society should recognize the harm caused by that organization and sanction them appropriately.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The West has always demonized Russia. “Communism” equals the original sin and “communists” is basically a slur for about a century now. After America worked so hard to unleash the most destructive weapon in human history, everyone should have cowed and crowned them the undisputed hegemons of the Earth. The idea of anyone daring to set themselves up as an antipode was extremely offensive. Even after the fall of the US…

I consider my self a "commie", but I find Russia's government's behaviour repugnant. It has nothing to with the average Russian, but everything to do with the Government, the dictator, and those who willingly support them. That isn't to say the west hasn't done anything wrong. But by my account, we can pin the following on Russia: - Installing puppets in foreign governments - Schroeder - Trump / GOP - Pushing for Bre…

>>> That isn't to say the west hasn't done anything wrong. But by my account, we can pin the following on Russia:

>>> - Installing puppets in foreign governments

>>> - Schroeder

>>> - Trump / GOP

>>> - Pushing for Brexit

What .... Trump and GOP are russia plants? got proof?

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#158

Regulation: > it is necessary, consistent with the fundamental rights and freedoms recognised in the Charter of Fundamental Rights, in particular with the right to freedom of expression and information as recognised in Article 11 thereof, to introduce further restrictive measures to urgently suspend the broadcasting activities of such media outlets in the Union What. Don't gaslight me with sentences like this in a of…

The way to read this is:

- they think the restriction is necessary;

- they have considered whether the said rights outweigh the need for the restriction, and believe they do not.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#160
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider my self a "commie", but I find Russia's government's behaviour repugnant. It has nothing to with the average Russian, but everything to do with the Government, the dictator, and those who willingly support them. That isn't to say the west hasn't done anything wrong. But by my account, we can pin the following on Russia: - Installing puppets in foreign governments - Schroeder - Trump / GOP - Pushing for Bre…

>>> That isn't to say the west hasn't done anything wrong. But by my account, we can pin the following on Russia: >>> - Installing puppets in foreign governments >>> - Schroeder >>> - Trump / GOP >>> - Pushing for Brexit What .... Trump and GOP are russia plants? got proof?

I can provide arguments in favour of the position but not definitive proof, you can decide whether all of this is just "circumstantial".

- First day of war, Trump praises Putin for his behaviour, on tape, call him a genius [1, 4].

- Second day of war, Trump doubles down, on tape. [1]

- When asked whether [Trump] made a mistake calling [Putin] a genius, Moskow Mitch dodges the question, responds that Putin is a "ruthless thug". [2]

- [Repeatedly] met with Putin with no staff / note takers. [3]

- [The first time] Trump was impeached over holding aid of $400m from Ukraine. [4]

- Trump sides with Russia against FBI at Helsinki summit [5]

- Trump veto'd sanctions against Russia [6]

- Trump says it's 'common sense' to include Russia in G7 [7]

- Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador [8]

- Trump offered to help Putin with wildfires while ignoring wildfires in US [9, 10]

And the list keeps growing, consider looking into Manafort under the light of these events.

As for Schroeder, consider that he pushed for gas, is a close friend of Putin and didn't extend lifetimes of Nuclear plants, and after leaving his position he became board member in Gazprom [11, 12, 13]

[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...

[2] https://www.newsweek.com/mitch-mcconnell-calls-putin-ruthles...

[3] https://www.vox.com/2019/1/29/18202515/trump-putin-russia-g2...

[4] https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-statement-ukraine-cris...

[5] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44852812

[6] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/us/politics/senate-russia...

[7] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g7-summit-trump/trump-say...

[8] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump...

[9] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-trump-putin-wi...

[10] https://democrats.org/news/fact-sheet-trump-ignored-and-refu...

[11] https://www.politico.eu/article/outrage-germany-ex-chancello...

[12] https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-10562307...

[13] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-former-german-...

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