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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

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Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#151

Post by fouc »

adamweld wrote: post #137
AngryData wrote: post #116

To me the most important questions are, does living a farm style life cause them undue distress and harm, and will they realize they are on a farm instead of just some weird octopus community. For example, the cows I own I can keep on my land and they are perfectly content to munch grass around the different pastures throughout the year as they are rotated, and have free clean shelter in the barn and free hay in the…

Octos aren't social creatures.

It varies, several species have been found to be social.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#152

Post by rectang »

Tomis02 wrote: post #141
rectang wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hold the opposite perspective: world wars are brought about by those who are convinced that there is only one correct moral system — theirs — and who therefore have no compunction about inflicting it on others. The belief that the no moral system is objectively correct, and yet choices matter because they have tangible effects, inoculates against dehumanizing those who do not share your ethics.

Logical fallacies are why I dislike talking to people. The point of view you expressed is not opposite from mine, as you can have multiple moral systems that can live side by side without issues. My original idea is that some moral systems are bad (in regards to those "tangible effects" you mentioned), and your assertion induces the idea that all moral systems are more or less the same.

> Logical fallacies are why I dislike talking to people.

Well, I admit I'm finding the exchange increasingly unpleasant as well. I'd like to think that if we were speaking in person with the benefit of tone of voice and body language it would feel less combative.

There does seem to be significant overlap in how we both allow for multiple moral systems. We appear to differ on what leads to world wars.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#153

Post by fouc »

jmcgough wrote: post #88
deutschewelle wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case it wasn't obvious the studies and this article is being written by people in the West who do not consume octopus. These articles almost always seem to derive to us-vs-them narrative, the idea that the West is somehow the forefront of moral novelty and the rest of the world is behind. When the irony is that the same random argument applied towards Octopus can be done on just about any sentient beings like cow…

The growth in octopus consumption is being driven largely by the USA. It's super healthy so I see more middle / upper class Americans eating it. Years ago it was a rare delicacy, now I can walk into most poke bowl restaurants in SF and get octopus. Tapas restaurants have become trendy as well.

I think the only time I've had octopus was when I tried Takoyaki a few times in Japan & Thailand. But honestly I found the diced octopus meat chewy and boring. Not very interested in it. As for health benefits? I doubt it.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#154

Post by bastawhiz »

sweetheart wrote: post #95
bastawhiz wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to point out contradictions of beliefs without having those beliefs yourself.

Sure, but what’s stopping you from holding that belief then?

Apathy? Lack of motivation to take personal action?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#155

Post by mtoohig »

gfody wrote: post #128
AngryData wrote: post #116

To me the most important questions are, does living a farm style life cause them undue distress and harm, and will they realize they are on a farm instead of just some weird octopus community. For example, the cows I own I can keep on my land and they are perfectly content to munch grass around the different pastures throughout the year as they are rotated, and have free clean shelter in the barn and free hay in the…

can you really compare cows to octopuses? are there even wild cows?

Where I am in Vanuatu in the south Pacific we have wild cows in the bush. Originally, these cows would have been domestic but escaped and they raise their young in the bush and now people hunt wild cows. Cows are usually kept by a rope around their neck tied to a tree and every couple days move the cow to a new area to let them access fresh vegetation. There are also some big plantations for coconuts and these usually have cows which if they break a fence will allow many to escape into the bush and hills.

People here use a dozen or so dogs to sniff out wild animals in the bush and chase them down until they tire enough for the hunters to catch up and spear the animal. These hunting parties can take days of hanging out and following the dogs or just one if lucky. Then carrying home giant cuts of meat is the hard part which often requires the hunting party to leave a lot of fresh meat behind.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#156

Post by Azek »

rtkaratekid wrote: post #146
AngryData wrote: post #116

To me the most important questions are, does living a farm style life cause them undue distress and harm, and will they realize they are on a farm instead of just some weird octopus community. For example, the cows I own I can keep on my land and they are perfectly content to munch grass around the different pastures throughout the year as they are rotated, and have free clean shelter in the barn and free hay in the…

I’ve heard this called the “one bad day” approach. The animals have a good life with only one bad day. In my opinion it’s probably the most ethical way to keep animals if the intent is to slaughter them at some point.

A non-obvious issue here is that often these animals are sent to slaughter around 12-24 months when they can live happily up to 25 years.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#157

Post by dundarious »

bmitc wrote: post #138
sweetheart wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment was in reference to animals specifically, not just life, so saying we need to eat life to survive and therefor must eat animals is incoherent. Also, for how long humans have eaten meat is totally irrelevant: doing something for a long time does not justify it. Human beings don’t require animal products to thrive, period, so those that eat them anyway engage in unnecessary cruelty against other se…

> Human beings don’t require animal products to thrive, period As much as I am in favor of reducing meat consumption of all kinds, is this an accepted fact?

For some measure of "accepted fact", yes: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/

> It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.

Eating quite minimal animal products is the norm in societies with the best longevity. A "good" vegan diet is very very healthy and cheap, only requiring supplementation with B12. This specific need for supplementation is more an artifact of modern farming practices -- we clean vegetables of the bacteria that produce B12, because we use fertilizers that must be washed away or else risk disease. Animal products contain B12 because those animals still eat enough bacteria produced B12 -- all animals get B12 from bacteria or from eating animals that get it from bacteria.

There are parts of the world where environment or culture doesn't allow for a "good" vegan diet. If you're in a developed nation and not in a food desert, the environmental aspect doesn't apply.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#158

Post by fouc »

pranith wrote: post #14
KerryJones wrote: post #7

I've had several people in my life tell me after more intense studies of octopi they refuse to eat them. While I've seen a couple of documentaries on the subject, I won't profess to know as much, but the essential argument has been that they're extremely intelligent, emotional animals. It's akin to eating a dog or cat (which might be acceptable in some parts of the world, but pretty shunned in the west). It's convinc…

Even cows are extremely intelligent and emotional animals. Did you stop eating them?

If you're a utilitarian part-vegetarian then you'd preferentially eat cow over smaller intelligent animals.

If we assume small animals and large animals experience the same amount of sentient pain during the slaughter, we can minimize the amount of pain per pound of meat produced. This means that beef is likely the best choice of meat for consumption. Unless we somehow developed whale farms someday.

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-10-09

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#159

Post by seanmcdirmid »

bane wrote: post #144
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Americans are largely people who consider seafood to start and stop at canned tuna so... That isn’t very accurate. Coastal Americans have had plenty of seafood to choose from, consider when they would serve lobsters to prisoners. Alaska is full of seafood to the point that it is a staple (and considering many of the Inuit communities who have been on that diet for thousands of years). Just because the customs a…

Yeah, I'm being reductive. But my impression as an American is that you don't have to get very far from a coastal area for seafood to pretty quickly diminish on the plates of the average person...and there's a lot of the U.S. that is very far from any coastal area. In other words, it's not unusual at all to hear people say "I don't really like seafood" or will eat it very minimally like in fried fish sticks and tuna…

And you can’t go very much anywhere in Greece or Japan and be away from the coast. What do you think they are eating deep inland in Russia, China, and Kazakhstan?

That’s not even getting into range. You won’t find lobster or octopus on the west coast unless it’s imported from a far away place. Better luck on the gulf coast, but you would have to be used to Cajun food (which is distinctly American with French influence) or Caribbean (ditto). Never try and Google Cajun and octopus together.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#160

Post by dnhz »

AngryData wrote: post #116

To me the most important questions are, does living a farm style life cause them undue distress and harm, and will they realize they are on a farm instead of just some weird octopus community. For example, the cows I own I can keep on my land and they are perfectly content to munch grass around the different pastures throughout the year as they are rotated, and have free clean shelter in the barn and free hay in the…

Even still, your cows live a fraction of their natural lifespans. A few years as opposed to 10+
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