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Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

economist.com

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Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#151

Post by akvadrako »

jcranmer wrote: post #49
conradev wrote: post #26

John Mearsheimer has a really great video from 6 years ago about Ukraine that I found fascinating: https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4 Basically, he thinks the west precipitated the crisis by pushing to have Ukraine join NATO, and he thinks it should remain a buffer state between NATO and Russia

> he thinks the west precipitated the crisis by pushing to have Ukraine join NATO NATO doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO (at least, not for the foreseeable future). That's why, even now , when Ukraine is more or less begging to join NATO, NATO has done diddly squat to do so. A lot of the pressure to join NATO within Ukraine has increased since Russia invaded Georgia and then Crimea. Russia only has itself to blame fo…

Even if not exactly joining NATO, there is an attempt to create close military ties:

The Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP): "Berlin plus agreement" from March 2003, which allows the EU to use NATO structures, mechanisms and assets to carry out military operations if NATO declines to act.

The European Defence Agency (EDA): established in July 2004 and is based in Brussels. It supports the EU Member States in improving their military capabilities in order to complete CSDP targets as set out in the European Security Strategy.

The European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement (EUUAA): The agreement commits both parties to promote a gradual convergence toward the EU's Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) and European Defence Agency (EDA) policies.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#152

Post by rosndo »

oceanplexian wrote: post #89
AutumnCurtain wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HackerNews has a weirdly pro-Russia bent, at least in these comment sections. People talking about how NATO "shouldn't expand" (why not, if the nations involved want to join a voluntary pact?) and how Crimea is and has been Russian, even though the Russians invaded and conquered it in the past decade... Really odd. Not just making arguments against US involvement but flat out repeating false, pro-Russian propaganda.

I mean part of it could be that lots of us have actually been to Russia (I fit in that category) or are Russian. We don’t need to rely on third party sources to tell us how to think. I’ve also been to China and it’s so much worse but the US propaganda machine loves China, in fact we’re watching them trivialize a country that places minorities in concentration camps on primetime TV. Doesn’t seem odd to me at all. The…

I’ve been to Russia, am married to a Russian, own homes both in Moscow and Kiev.

Many Americans on HN who have never visited either country have a weirdly pro-Russian bend.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#153

Post by irthomasthomas »

jcranmer wrote: post #135
irthomasthomas wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many times have they run the experiment of detonating ~10,000 atom bombs at once?

How many atomic bombings have resulted in stratospheric soot injection? The answer, I believe, is 0, even including the two atomic bombs that were dropped on populated areas. Major conflagrations that result in stratospheric soot pumps are extremely difficult--the Kuwaiti oil fires didn't manage that, and that involved literally setting oil wells ablaze uncontrollably. Without stratospheric soot injection, there's no…

How do you know that soot injection and nuclear winter are the only possible side-effects from detonating all the bombs at once? We are still frequently surprised by experiments in chemistry and physics that produce weird results when scaled up. The Quantum Hall effect, for an example off the top of my head.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#154

Post by grey-area »

gfosco wrote: post #141
grey-area wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has already invaded Ukraine, with special forces and proxy forces, in Donetsk and in Crimea, indeed Putin claims Ukrainians and Russians are the same people. The forces they support have even committed war crimes like downing a civilian jet and killing hundreds and in recent days shelling civilian villages. While it seems to be fashionable to make excuses for a murderous dictator like Putin, Putin’s intentions…

You're being hyperbolic... I am merely pointing out this doesn't appear to be unprovoked. This place should be a little more open-minded than an MSNBC panel.

That was not being hyperbolic at all, I’m just stating facts about the actions of Putin.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#155

Post by sudosysgen »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #138
conradev wrote: post #26

John Mearsheimer has a really great video from 6 years ago about Ukraine that I found fascinating: https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4 Basically, he thinks the west precipitated the crisis by pushing to have Ukraine join NATO, and he thinks it should remain a buffer state between NATO and Russia

The only way this argument makes sense is if Ukraine's sovereignty is not acknowledged.

That's not true. It's not just up to Ukraine to join NATO, it has to get approval for it. Beyond that, the US directly and blatantly meddled in Ukrainian affairs to make that happen.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#156

Post by rosndo »

kuratkull wrote: post #42
gfosco wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're too cynical, but we can have our own takes. From what I was able to piece together, Russia isn't the one starting this conflict, in action. It's NATO aligned countries trying to get Ukraine to join NATO. Russia made it very clear, that ain't happening and they'll go to war over it. So who's still agitating for war? The zero-evidence claims that Russia was about to invade sure look like pure propa…

Quoted post unavailable.

There are also a lot of people unwittingly participating in Russian disinfo ops. We should condemn them, but they’re usually not paid.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#157

Post by VictorPath »

AutumnCurtain wrote: post #72
stefan_ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a popular edgy opinion but I think it's useful to occasionally remember who has thousands of soldiers massed on the border.

HackerNews has a weirdly pro-Russia bent, at least in these comment sections. People talking about how NATO "shouldn't expand" (why not, if the nations involved want to join a voluntary pact?) and how Crimea is and has been Russian, even though the Russians invaded and conquered it in the past decade... Really odd. Not just making arguments against US involvement but flat out repeating false, pro-Russian propaganda.

> HackerNews has a weirdly pro-Russia bent

Maybe US corporate media, owned and controlled by 1% heirs, has a particularly imperial bent, wanting to expand the American empire even farther, in this case US tanks and missiles alongside Ukraine's long border with Russia (which incidentally is filled with Russian speaking ethnic Russians who do not want this). US media is also filled with beneficiaries and think-tankers from the military industrial complex president Eisenhower talked about. The interferers in European affairs George Washington warned about. Anne Applebaum, quoted in this thread, is an un-American, anti-American who wants confrontation with Russia for whatever psychological or political reasons. With the average inflation-adjusted US hourly wage below what it was a half century ago (even before Covid), with a country racked with Covid, the US should not get dragged into a military adventure on Russia's border. Let the Europeans deal with the diplomatic niceties, the US should stay out.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#158

Post by whythre »

zeepzeep wrote: post #121
pbronez wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> the alternative is strong men using cruelty to extract wealth at any cost. That sounds like America now...

Go to Africa to see wealth extracted at any cost. Economic and environmental devastation and lots of otherwise preventable suffering.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#159

Post by thesuperbigfrog »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #108
VictorPath wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia annexed Crimea The Russian military was in the Crimea back when redcoats were stationed in New York City, and has been in the Crimea ever since.

Ah now, by that logic it would be acceptable for the British government to invade and occupy Ireland, India, and much of the rest of the world. By which I mean, historical presence in an area tells us little about the legitimacy of current day activities. And even then, Crimea was a terrible thing, but it made strategic sense (the russian fleet base is there). I don't see any real strategic benefit for Russia with in…

>> Ah now, by that logic it would be acceptable for the British government to invade and occupy Ireland, India, and much of the rest of the world.

Mongolia would like to have a word.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#160

Post by elzbardico »

baremetal wrote: post #2

I read this as why the economist and friends want russia to want war. but maybe im just cynical and jaded?

This article is pure propaganda war. It is this generation's "WMDs in Iraq"

And the industrial-military complex will laugh all its way to the bank while stepping on the innocents corpses

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