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‘Farms are failing’ as fertilizer prices drive up cost of food

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Re: ‘Farms are failing’ as fertilizer prices drive up cost of food

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this speed is making both them and the land sick — cows are meant to eat grass, not the grains used to fatten them quickly. Do also keep in mind that there are wide swaths of land which can usefully be occupied by ruminants that cannot be farmed without piping in almost all the water and dumping fertilizer on it. Such marginal land is counted as arable so as to further attack animal husbandry.

> And this speed is making both them and the land sick — cows are meant to eat grass, not the grains used to fatten them quickly. Substitute grass for vegetables and I think this applies to humans as well.

No, we evolved to consume prepared food, including meat. Our mouths, jaws, and digestive system have been coevolving for past few tens-to-hundreds of thousands of years with our diets and food preparation methods. Certainly, vegetables have not been a major source of calories for humans in many tens of thousands of years now (because they don’t have a lot of calories in them in the first place, but also because they are only available in narrow window of the growing season.

Re: ‘Farms are failing’ as fertilizer prices drive up cost of food

#152
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too lazy to look up numbers, but in the US corn is a significant crop and much of it is more of an industrial feedstock rather than food for people. I'm guessing that "more natural" processes could still feed us all but the game is rigged so that it's not economical for to do that (directly, as it's effectively subsidized for the "economical" side).

Corn is a very good carbon sink. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016719871... https://denvergazette.com/news/environment/one-global-warmin...

Carbon isn't nitrogen. The nitrogen needed for agriculture comes from the Haber process. What I'm saying is we can't just give up on the Haber process and go back to "natural" farming without figuring out how we're going to feed everybody.

Re: ‘Farms are failing’ as fertilizer prices drive up cost of food

#153

Something that bugs me: How much human poop is generated worldwide every day and where does it go?? Why isn’t some of it used as fertilizer, or is it?

The UK is importing human waste from the Netherlands to be used as fertilizer. I guess they don't eat enough in the UK to produce what they need locally? Odd thing to need to import!

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/02/sewage-s...

Re: ‘Farms are failing’ as fertilizer prices drive up cost of food

#154

Pastures are the future. There's a reason the US Midwest had such great soil — it's not simply a confluence of rivers & luck. The buffalo did their thing, and the grasses they fed on were fed in turn by them. Replacing corn and soy with ruminants will replenish the soil, provide excellent protein for people, and get rid of the cheap, food-like things made from corn, soy, and their chemically-coaxed out byproducts. It…

Before artificial fertilizer, world famines were commonplace and the base rate of starvation was very high compared to today. I hope that anyone truly advocating for a return to that world has studied history and understands the consequences.

Re: ‘Farms are failing’ as fertilizer prices drive up cost of food

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Livestock takes up nearly 80% of global agricultural land, yet produces less than 20% of the world’s supply of calories." https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets "So if this system is so ideal, why is it that my cow hasn’t tasted a blade of grass since October? Speed, in a word. Cows raised on grass simply take longer to reach slaughter weight than cows raised on a richer diet, and the modern me…

There is more to food than calories. I would love to replace livestock with bioreactors but I don’t think people understand the interaction with food and health well enough yet for me to ‘trust the science’. Plus costs have to come way way down. I eat a decent amount of yeast derivatives so it’s getting part of the way there. I also eat free range meat whenever possible because I hope that it is healthier for me; the…

>pushing everyone into eating cheap to grow grains

There is more to plant-based food than grains. Seeds and legumes are full of nutrients. People can and do survive on way less meat.

Re: ‘Farms are failing’ as fertilizer prices drive up cost of food

#156
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only point I see that wasn't addressed was that we can use land unsuitable for agriculture for grazing, but in that case all the supposed top-soil benefits are going to the wrong place anyway.

"The wrong place" can become "the right place" in a relatively short period of time if we change the way we think about agriculture, is the point. For what it's worth, I think the main problem here is agricultural subsidies - they completely distort the market. Calories are cheap due to this, true, but the result is completely unsustainable agricultural practices, poorer health, a more fragile economy, and less varie…

Agreed. There’s another thing that must change as well: our (the US specifically) focus on profits above all else. We act as if our actions and decisions have no consequences and continually mortgage the future for profits today.

If we don’t change this, we’re dooming ourselves.

Re: ‘Farms are failing’ as fertilizer prices drive up cost of food

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So if this system is so ideal, why is it that my cow hasn’t tasted a blade of grass since October? Keep in mind this is absolutely not true in even the rest of the Western world. American-style cattle factory farms are almost unheard of in the UK, and practically all beef here would count as grass-fed, because that's just how we raise cattle. There is some supplementation over winter when grass doesn't grow (and ev…

I can’t remember the last time I’ve had a great steak in the UK. The beef is just very low quality compared to what is sourced in the USA. Far too lean in the UK. I and I generally find them a bit tougher too possibly due to more roaming by the cattle. Now, UK pork on the other hand is tremendous.

For whatever reason, unless you go super high end, beef in the UK tends not to be great. Given that it's much better in Ireland, which has the same climate, I don't really understand it.

Re: ‘Farms are failing’ as fertilizer prices drive up cost of food

#158
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more to food than calories. I would love to replace livestock with bioreactors but I don’t think people understand the interaction with food and health well enough yet for me to ‘trust the science’. Plus costs have to come way way down. I eat a decent amount of yeast derivatives so it’s getting part of the way there. I also eat free range meat whenever possible because I hope that it is healthier for me; the…

>pushing everyone into eating cheap to grow grains There is more to plant-based food than grains. Seeds and legumes are full of nutrients. People can and do survive on way less meat.

Like there is more to food than calories, there is more to life than survival.

Re: ‘Farms are failing’ as fertilizer prices drive up cost of food

#160

Pastures are the future. There's a reason the US Midwest had such great soil — it's not simply a confluence of rivers & luck. The buffalo did their thing, and the grasses they fed on were fed in turn by them. Replacing corn and soy with ruminants will replenish the soil, provide excellent protein for people, and get rid of the cheap, food-like things made from corn, soy, and their chemically-coaxed out byproducts. It…

The midwest has great soil because billions of organisms died millions of years ago in a shallow sea that covered most of the central united states today.

I’m not sure that’s correct, or at least is not complete. There were many cycles of grasses and wildlife involved in building up the soil.
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