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The medieval habit of ‘two sleeps’

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Re: The medieval habit of ‘two sleeps’

#151
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a nice graphic showing a baby's sleep pattern during the first 15 weeks: http://www.eiman.tv/misc/somnrytm.jpg Since the text is in Swedish, here's roughly what it says: Every row is a day, black is sleep, white is awake.

Oh wow. Babies sleep a lot.

As some parents would attest: some babies sleep a lot. They all wake up a lot :)

Re: The medieval habit of ‘two sleeps’

#153
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, so, 21-24 and 3-7/8. Took me a while.

I knew some people in college who might well have kept the 9-12 and 15-19 sleep routine...

Yeah there was a time, where I would sleep from 2-4 to 8 and then take 2 hour nap in the afternoon(after school when I just dropped dead) because insomnia. But I felt like shit all the time...

Re: The medieval habit of ‘two sleeps’

#154

I believe this theory is largely thought false nowadays, or phrased too strongly at least. I myself have weird sleep cycles. I prefer to stay up into the night and wake up around 12:00, but I vary my sleeping hours by up to 4 hours or so. I go to sleep when I feel like it, and don't feel much discomfort by falling asleep at different times. It leads to weird situations - especially in winter - where I might not see t…

I used to sleep like this too, for around 15 years (20-35yo). Then I began to experience many-day insomnias, or inability to wake up until my body feels like it. Troubles with digestion, immune system, motivation and mental state in general (all interlinked). Checking my hormone levels was like rolling dice every time. My endocrinologist, gastroenterologist, neurologist, psychotherapist all told me that if I don't correct my sleep cycles and get married, I'll suffer even more. I did the former half a year ago and feel much better.

It doesn't have to be connected, maybe my health would deteriorate independently of sleep or alone factors, but doctors say that it puts you into the risk group at the very least. I'd say be careful, but 5-10 years ago I'd also waved it away as irrelevant :)

Re: The medieval habit of ‘two sleeps’

#155
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about commonly thought to be false because I'm not sure it's commonly thought about at all, but it's a theory with considerable weaknesses Ekirch hypothesis: Early humans had two distinct phases of sleep with an important gap between. Lack of in-depth discussion or even a name for that gap in any language is actually evidence of it being so common it wasn't worth commenting on. It disappeared - again wit…

> Null hypothesis: early humans slept much like today's humans [...] That's a terrible null hypothesis, as there is no reproducible, controllable test for it, other than a time machine. A better one might be "people exposed to pre-industrial revolution photoperiods ( This was empirically tested with a small N ( https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2869.1992... ). At least it's testable.

Specifying that as something isn't directly testable, it's better that a bold new theory should actually be the null hypothesis isn't how science works! We've observed a lot of populations with little or no natural light and there is no reason to cherry pick the one or two which actually conform to Ekirch's proposed "standard" form of sleep. I mean, for a start, assuming "pre industrial revolution photoperiods" generally matched the ones in Wehr's study involves pretending that seasons don't exist in most of the places Ekirch's soured material came from!

Re: The medieval habit of ‘two sleeps’

#156
post #19
post #13

The article does not mention it, but mothers with small children have to nurse babies every couple of hours, even at night. So given that in middle ages, families had "copious numbers of children" (quote from the article), it is for sure that mothers would need to get up to feed a baby. And then possibly the whole family would woke up too. And if multiple generations were living in the same house, then even more prob…

The parent not caring for the baby learns to sleep through. My wife and I swap roles when we wean babies, we need just a couple nights to get used to the changed role.

Sleep through baby crying? I found my own babies cries to be a complete NMI.

When we had infants I'd go back to sleep pretty well instantly (co-sleeping, with baby on a side-cot at bed level; baby breastfed, not by me) but in general one would wake to the little snuffles that precede the crying (I guess that helps to calm them before they get in a tizzy [in a state, brought on by their own actions, crying in this case]).

I sleep through thunderstorms without stirring.

I'm a few years out from dealing with crying babies and still if there's crying in the background, that sounds like one of my kids, I'll pop-up like a meerkat. The sound even gets though (non noise-cancelling) headphones when I'm gaming, though I won't know what I've heard until I take them off.

Re: The medieval habit of ‘two sleeps’

#157

I tried this for a few weeks in college and it was a pretty neat experience. I slept first from 9-12 and then 3-7/8. Those three hours between 12 and 3 ended up being super productive - I was very energized and had creative ideas about whatever I was doing. I had to stop because going to bed at 9 in college was like kissing your social life goodbye, but even these days if I naturally wake up in the middle of the nigh…

This is a fabulous podcast that, amongst other things, highlights those feelings amazing productivity at night.

https://nocturnepodcast.org/quiet-transmission/

https://nocturnepodcast.org/the-nocturnist/

Re: The medieval habit of ‘two sleeps’

#159
post #13

The article does not mention it, but mothers with small children have to nurse babies every couple of hours, even at night. So given that in middle ages, families had "copious numbers of children" (quote from the article), it is for sure that mothers would need to get up to feed a baby. And then possibly the whole family would woke up too. And if multiple generations were living in the same house, then even more prob…

Here's a nice graphic showing a baby's sleep pattern during the first 15 weeks: http://www.eiman.tv/misc/somnrytm.jpg Since the text is in Swedish, here's roughly what it says: Every row is a day, black is sleep, white is awake.

As a parent of an 8 month old baby who wakes up literally every hour - what is that solid line from 10pm till 6am at around 10 weeks :P Feels like fantasy

Re: The medieval habit of ‘two sleeps’

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how typical your experience is. My daughter needed to be fed every few hours for the first 11 months. Both my wife and I were freaking zombies. It was rough on us. My wife would basically get a couple of hours every time the baby went down, but no long and peaceful sleep. In talking with friends, it would seem like our experience was extra crappy and yours is uncharacteristically mild. So the reality may…

My wife and I thought the same as you, BTW. Then she visited a sleep training centre with our daughter. Turns out if you stop feeding them or going to them in the middle of the night, they adapt and sleep through in less than a week.

Out of my very limited anecdotal experience (two small children), it mostly relates to how well fed they are: unfortunately, both of our two kids are bad eaters (the first just wouldn't eat enough, ever, even today at 5yo; the second is just extremely picky but eats plenty of what she likes). The older kid kept waking up in the middle of the night even at 3 yo (not to ask for food, but when we were sure he got stuffed in the evening, never did he wake up). The younger slept through the night at 10 months a few times, but as she gets pickier, those are actually less frequent now at 15 months than back then.

I am sure we could train them with some sort of food scarcity approach (this is the only thing there is to eat; now is the only time you can eat) to teach them to eat enough of the food that's there, but that'd take a psychological toll for a few weeks on us that we aren't able/willing to take on.

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