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My First Impressions of Web3

moxie.org

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Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#151

This article seems like it neatly encapsulates and explains why I've subconsciously held off from jumping into the Web3 space. It might be confirmation bias speaking, but I don't think I've seen anyone lampoon Web3 so thoroughly, and it's nice to have some well-reasoned explanations for why I feel the way I do. EDIT: A further thought: this article is the first I've read on Web3 that feels like it's actually importan…

I don't think this article "lampoons" web3 in any way.

While the article is on the whole critical (but not completely), it did not do so using sarcasm, ridicule, or irony.

lampoon: publicly criticize (someone or something) by using ridicule, irony, or sarcasm.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#152
post #24

As much as I hate cryptocurrency as-it-exists, I'm very much into its potential. Untraceable (eg Monero) digital cash that settles instantly? That has the potential to disrupt societies. The problem is that most societies don't have a particular need of being disrupted, so people are perfectly content paying with their credit cards, and why shouldn't they be? The UX is better and the banks are fine as long as they do…

Untraceable digital cash facilitates crime, money laundering and tax evasion. None of these things are good for a stable democracy.

You mean like paper cash?

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#153
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Couldn't Rolex issue a PGP signed CSV of all valid Rolex serial numbers once a month on IPFS and you'd get the exact same security and trust profile without having to involve any "web3" feature? A serial number can be copied and engraved onto a forged watch, so not really. A more analogous scenario would be if Rolex embedded an NFC hardware chip with a private key inside the watch, such that anyone could wave their…

> NFC hardware chip with a private key inside the watch, such that anyone could wave their phone over their watch and verify that the chip’s cert was indeed signed by Rolex. This is an excellent idea and I am now wondering why luxury brands haven't started doing this. It would be super hot. One would do it and suddenly they would all be doing it. Watches, handbags, shoes, whatever

Luxury watch brands prevent copycats by making the watches hard to copy using special alloys (Rolex), glass techniques (AP) etc.

And fashion brands iterate quickly on their designs so when you see fake LV bags it already looks dated.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#154

> People don’t want to run their own servers, and never will That's one believably accurate summary. But here's another: rather than focus on trying to make it easy, cheap and simple for everyone to run their own servers, the tech world spent 1996-today instead focused on offering to take care of this for everybody else, for a price. Everybody concluded in the late 90s that the "nobody wants to run their own servers"…

The personal server space is littered with failed startups. Not because it's difficult to make turnkey personal servers. Embedded Linux hardware is unbelievably cheap. They fail because they don't bring any benefit against real-world threats, but they come with significant downside risks. If your house floods or your home server is burgled, your data is just gone. So your home server ends up backed up to the cloud an…

> Not because it's difficult to make turnkey personal servers.

It's crazy hard to make turnkey personal servers that will be usable by ordinary people.

> They fail because they don't bring any benefit against real-world threats,

For a vocal contingent online, real-world threats involve lack of control over hosting, over their data, over encryption. Your own servers would address (at least partially) all these problems, but of course, these are not problems that most people in the world using walled gardens even consider to be problems.

> So your home server ends up backed up to the cloud anyway, and now you're maintaining a home server and a cloud server

Utilizing an online/network backup service as part of running your own server is qualitatively different from running a server in the cloud.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#155
This is a truly excellent criticism of the state of "crypto" and "web3". As someone who thinks these technologies are interesting, i'm glad someone finally wrote a decent, sincere critique that covered a lot of the very real issues with it.

I think i'd break this piece down into two categories: The first is critiques of current implementations, and the second is critiques of the structural incentives of the technology. I think it's important to separate those things somewhat.

The privacy, security and centralization of Infura/Alchemy are real and important issues, and to a limited extent, derive from the fundamental incentives of the ecosystem. However, what I think critically differentiates "web3" from "web2" is that those platforms are commoditized. Infura and Alchemy are providers of a service that is fundamentally a commodity, they have very little market power. Contrast to comparable web2 platforms like Facebook or Google, who have tremendous market power over consumers who's data they've warehoused. I think this is a really important structural difference between the two. That in no way takes away from the seriousness of the critique of Infura/Alchemy and how they're used, but I think it does somewhat limit the importance of that failure. Anyone can build a new, better gateway platform, and users can switch to it without having to ask anyone's permission to export their data. That's a really big deal.

The more structural critique I think relates to the issue of iteration speed, and the tendency that slow, bureaucratic development processes have to push the technological frontier outside their own scope. I think that's a real, structural problem that any decentralized system has, and its fitting that Moxie should point it out, given that he's famously (and correctly, in my view) resisted exactly these sorts of things for exactly these reasons in Signal (e.g. federation) since forever. I think this critique is the most important and serious critique of the crypto space in general, and if anything is going to bring it down, this is it. This problem remains largely unsolved at this point, but whether or not it can be solved is going to hinge on the quality of the group coordination mechanisms people are able to devise. I'm personally optimistic that these things can get figured out, but they are very hard problems.

An important thing to note here though is that a lot of things actually work just fine with this kind of bureaucratic/slow iteration process. Consider core web protocols like HTTP, SMTP, or even something like x86. These things tend to be "low in the stack", but that is exactly what the underlying crypto infrastructure wants to be as well. The more general your platform, the less quick iteration you require. Whether or not crypto platform are able to deliver something like this remains to be seen, but it is a thing that does happen and works ok in many areas today.

> “It’s early days still” is the most common refrain I see from people in the web3 space when discussing matters like these. In some ways, cryptocurrency’s failure to scale beyond relatively nascent engineering is what makes it possible to consider the days “early,” since objectively it has already been a decade or more.

I'd also like to point out that most prior "generations" of the web took at least a decade to come to fruition. It's easy to forget how long things take to mature, but the fact that crypto doesn't have everything figured out after 10 years is not all that surprising:

https://www.timetoast.com/timelines/history-of-web-20

And this is only going back to the early 90s. Obviously various proto "webs" existed long before then. Very structurally different technologies can take quite a while to sort themselves out, and find their niche.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#156
I think the important part of decentralization is not that “everyone must” own their own server, but rather that “anyone can” run their own server, that indexes the globally consistent blockchain database.

But, I agree that the most troublesome parts are around the client/server relationship due to the need for indexing/caching, and the irony of having a man-in-the-middle between you and the trustless network.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

only one or two true Ethereum full-nodes source?

I should have said archival nodes, the ones that keep state back to the genesis block. I don't know if that number is even tracked anywhere. I've read estimates ranging from 2 to 5. I'm trying to find where I read that, happy to be wrong - or right, if anyone has data. [edit] Here. [1] And here. [2] After examining every which way we could think of to add the Trie state to our Ethereum state, we asked Vitalik for ass…

everyone running erigon nodes (like myself) are running full archival nodes, currently there are ~300, https://www.ethernodes.org/.

Many geth nodes are archival, but we cant see which ones are.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#158
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh it’s totally doable to run your own node on your own server! And thanks to the protocols consensus rules your users can trust that for a transaction to go through your node and be accepted onto main net your node is a good actor. So one example I’d give - every team I’ve worked on has had to build a local development environment with several nodes to easily spin up with a clean slate for deterministic testing. Tea…

Okay. Why doesn’t everyone do that, then? Why use Infura? As is hopefully obvious, I am totally naive here; my questions are genuine. Thanks!

Economies of scale basically.

It's way simpler to just connect to Wikipedia.org and download the pages you want to read instead of downloading the whole Wikipedia.org database and keeping it stored and updated on your devices. Same principle.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

only one or two true Ethereum full-nodes source?

I should have said archival nodes, the ones that keep state back to the genesis block. I don't know if that number is even tracked anywhere. I've read estimates ranging from 2 to 5. I'm trying to find where I read that, happy to be wrong - or right, if anyone has data. [edit] Here. [1] And here. [2] After examining every which way we could think of to add the Trie state to our Ethereum state, we asked Vitalik for ass…

Archival nodes also keep state back to the genesis block, it's just stored in delta format so you could say that it's not "unpacked" out to the disk. It's a common misconception that "full nodes" don't have all this data.

> Every now and then someone will argue on CT that Ethereum full nodes are not complete nodes because archive nodes exist. I decided to run a little experiment to disprove a few things

> The goal was to convert a full node into an archive node, demonstrating that Ethereum full nodes contain all the necessary blockchain data.

> 28 days later, I can confirm that it worked. I started with a 150 GB full node and expanded it to an archive node weighting 2.3 TB, without external network connectivity.

[1] https://twitter.com/marcandu/status/1116807660882530305 [2] https://medium.com/@marcandrdumas/are-ethereum-full-nodes-re...

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