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Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

nature.com

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Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#151

Post by dwabyick »

toomanydoubts wrote: post #26
cipheredStones wrote: post #11

Despite having had the relevant experience, I've always found it hard to understand why this happens. You know you're taking a drug that reliably induces feelings of "oceanic connectedness". Why should you change your worldview as a result? All kinds of things can change the way you feel temporarily, but most of them don't leave you thinking that you got insight into the way things really are. Maybe it's that psyched…

I believe it's because it shows you that reality is not actually real. It's just a product of your senses. During a psychedelic trip, one might wonder "if I had been like this all my life, I would consider this to be reality, not what I'm used too". It fundamentally shows you that what you consider reality might be very, very, very wrong. So how can I trust my own senses and perceptions if they can be so powerfully m…

This resonates with me. A massive change in perspective. A second reason. Supposedly under very strong doses, psychedelics can result in massive reduction of the ego-centric systems in your brain, so you can experience life / nature “beyond” yourself and feel more connection. Some people can do this naturally and thus maybe don’t psychedelics. For others it’s very insightful.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#152

Post by jklinger410 »

toomanydoubts wrote: post #73
jklinger410 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same drug, same effects. Cameras can't see your wall melting, but they exactly match what we see in reality Huh, weird.

Cameras were designed to work just like our own eyes. Design a camera to work like flies eyes, and suddenly you will get an image that does not match your perception. That's the whole point, we don't know reality. We only know a model of reality that we can perceive with the senses we have. Show a picture to a fly and it will tell you: "you're tripping, this is not what reality looks like".

The physical reality seen by a fly and myself are the same consistent reality. Regardless of our differences in perspective.

You are correct, we only know a model of reality that we can piece together. And we piece that reality together, bit by bit, with instruments and math and studying.

Regardless of how much you dream that there is an oasis in the desert, it is simply not there. No one else can see it, no instruments can detect it, you can't drink its water, it is unreal.

You can "what if" and "woah dude" until you are blue in the face, but you will never be able to drink that water.

So what is more real? The sun and the sand and your dehydration? Or an oasis that exists only in your mind? Many don't like the answer, but it is clear as day.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#153

Post by bondarchuk »

cipheredStones wrote: post #11

Despite having had the relevant experience, I've always found it hard to understand why this happens. You know you're taking a drug that reliably induces feelings of "oceanic connectedness". Why should you change your worldview as a result? All kinds of things can change the way you feel temporarily, but most of them don't leave you thinking that you got insight into the way things really are. Maybe it's that psyched…

Psychedelics don't just give you certain insights/thoughts/ideas, they do so while causing a very intense euphoric experience. I think that's what actually makes it stick. Not that different from religious prayer/meditation, which is strongly euphoric as well.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#154

Post by gonehome »

rendall wrote: post #124
eurasiantiger wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”Doing drugs” evokes images of injecting hard drugs with all the unclean nastiness. ”Experimenting with psychedelics” is really, really far from that reality.

I'm going to just go ahead and inform everyone that experimenting with psychedelics is doing drugs. I do hope to live in a world someday where informed consent is sacrosanct and legally protected; and people don't feel the need to split hairs like this.

It was clear to me he meant prior to taking the psychedelics.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#155

Post by jklinger410 »

renewiltord wrote: post #101
jklinger410 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same drug, same effects. Cameras can't see your wall melting, but they exactly match what we see in reality Huh, weird.

We’re at the allegory of the cave level here. You gotta pass that point to understand this. But you also don’t have to understand this. It’s okay to not understand it.

What if like, we're just in a raindrop in some cloud in another universe? Woah. It's like the allegory of the cave man.

Have fun with that!

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#156

Post by musingsole »

cipheredStones wrote: post #11

Despite having had the relevant experience, I've always found it hard to understand why this happens. You know you're taking a drug that reliably induces feelings of "oceanic connectedness". Why should you change your worldview as a result? All kinds of things can change the way you feel temporarily, but most of them don't leave you thinking that you got insight into the way things really are. Maybe it's that psyched…

Intense dreams have toppled empires.

Knowing the experience was triggered by a known substance doesn't mean you should throw out the entirety as some sort of manufactured sensation separated from reality.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#157

Post by slibhb »

cipheredStones wrote: post #11

Despite having had the relevant experience, I've always found it hard to understand why this happens. You know you're taking a drug that reliably induces feelings of "oceanic connectedness". Why should you change your worldview as a result? All kinds of things can change the way you feel temporarily, but most of them don't leave you thinking that you got insight into the way things really are. Maybe it's that psyched…

I had the same view until I tried dmt. With dmt, you can easily find a "break through" dose. This is the point where your consciousness stops being a disinterested spectator and gets sucked into the experience. The moment your consciousness gets pulled in is extremely disconcerting, I'd never felt anything like it (including other psychedelics).

The resulting experiences are basically religious visions (I'm an atheist). Often, an entity appears and reveals a vision.

> Maybe it's that psychedelics also induce feelings of having discovered something important, and a lot of people don't try to double-check whether they actually did.

I think psychedelics solidify or clarify feelings or ideas that you previously had. Lots of people take them as evidence of their superstitious feelings. For me, not being superstitious, they did not have that effect but they did clarify my worldview.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#158

Post by jklinger410 »

malermeister wrote: post #90
jklinger410 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same drug, same effects. Cameras can't see your wall melting, but they exactly match what we see in reality Huh, weird.

But you only see the recordings from those cameras with the same eyes you're trying to verify, so this isn't actually giving you anything useful. You only have one input and no way of testing how reliable it is.

X ray vision, heat vision, electron microscopes all exist and translate things outside of our visual ranges into something we can perceive.

None of those validate LSD induced hallucinations. If you have some ideas that those technologies are wrong, go enter the field and prove it! Until then this conjecture is intellectually lazy.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#159

Post by Sosh101 »

cipheredStones wrote: post #11

Despite having had the relevant experience, I've always found it hard to understand why this happens. You know you're taking a drug that reliably induces feelings of "oceanic connectedness". Why should you change your worldview as a result? All kinds of things can change the way you feel temporarily, but most of them don't leave you thinking that you got insight into the way things really are. Maybe it's that psyched…

I think one thing it can do is allow you to view things with fewer of the biases, assumptions and other mental stuff you've accumulated over the years. Having a fresh (childlike?) view of things can give you a newfound appreciation for many things (e.g. the environment).

> You know you're taking a drug that reliably induces feelings of "oceanic connectedness". Why should you change your worldview as a result?

Isn't that a little bit like saying that you shouldn't change your views after reading a book, if you are aware that the book commonly changes views?

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#160

Post by [deleted] »

malermeister wrote: post #87
jklinger410 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got it backwards. Reality does not change due to hallucination, only my perception of it. I've tripped many times and none of what I saw was real, and everything I saw when I wasn't tripping was real. It's good as therapy, and reveals a lot about perception and thoughts, but nothing else.

> I've tripped many times and none of what I saw was real, and everything I saw when I wasn't tripping was real. How would you possibly verify this claim? What is reality if not your perception of it? Does objective reality exist? How do you know anything is objectively real and not a product of some brain process? All of those are long-standing philosophical questions. Here's [1] a quick intro on the problem space I…

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