Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Or the real estate market, where basically every single price you see is a lie" "these rules are stupid" What never ceases to amaze me about free market extremists, is how much they take living in a civilised society for granted. Try living in Russia where no-one is keeping fraud in check, you will quickly appreciate why we have these rules. A productive economy is imposible where every transaction could mean your s…
No, I am being specific here. I am referring to rules regarding market manipulation in lit order books of publicly traded securities and derivatives. Those rules are stupid. I don’t think all rules are stupid, just these particular rules. The reason I think the rules are stupid is that they don’t prevent fraud, they just prevent behaviour which is considered pretty legitimate in every other marketplace. Like, a spoof…
CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)
151–160 of 200 posts
Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's called the (Eric) Holder doctrine: > That sentiment was echoed as late as 2012 by Lanny Breuer, then the head of the Justice Department’s criminal division, who said in a speech at the New York City Bar Association that he felt it was his duty to consider the health of the company, the industry, and the markets in deciding whether or not to file charges. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/how-w…
That in no way backs up your claim. 1) That was 10 years ago 2) All they said was that they consider the country as a whole when laying charges, they said nothing about they are specifically not charging banks due to this. And the fact that they just laid a huge fine against JPM blows your entire argument out of the water. I can see why you chose to create a throw away account in this case to comment. I now see i'm b…
What does "ten years ago" have to do with it? The original claim said nothing about when it was said; you're the only one who brought that up.
Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)
#153Unpopular opinion here: these rules are stupid. It’s like fining or jailing someone for bluffing in poker. Of course people are spoofing or doing other manipulative activity. Similar things happen in retail all the time with no jail sentences, it’s just not algorithmic. “40% off but the offer ends in 3 hours!” is designed to mislead you into thinking there is a short-term mispricing of the product in a very similar w…
Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even if they had exactly the same outcome, one is theft the other is simply breaking the rules. It's a bit like killing a person using a gun and killing a person as a result of driving like the rules don't apply to you. Once it is established that you did the act, the first one undoubtedly puts you in jail for a very long time no matter who you are and the second one may get you a fine and no jail time so that no har…
> the other is simply breaking the rules. Actually, this isn't necessarily true. Example regarding the college admission scandal that demonstrates that just because a dollar wasn't "stolen", something of value was. The admissions slots were stolen from the colleges and resold on the black market. Which is a crime, for good reason. We don’t have to act like there wasn’t a legal, primary market for the admissions slots…
ah, the crux of the problem. we've veered much too far in this direction, and that's why we get absurdities like corporations stealing millions being punished much less severely than individuals stealing thousands. the law should primarily be about protecting people, not property (or corporations).
Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
JPM makes a lot of money doing a lot of things. You need to compare the fine vs. their trading revenue.
Why would I look at just their trading revenue? The fine was levied against the entire company, not just their trading subsidiary. >settling charges against JPMorgan Chase & Company (JPMC & Co.) and its subsidiaries, JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A., and J.P. Morgan Securities LLC (JPMS) (collectively, JPM)
Why should you? Suppose you did a bad. Let's it was a side hustle where you took refurbished ipads and resold them as brand-new ipads. Over the past year you made $2000 in profit from doing so. The cops caught you doing it and fined you $10k. That sounds like a pretty serious penalty. However, you're also a bay area software engineer making $400k total comp, so $10k is a drop in the bucket. Should they fine you $200k instead, just because you happen to be a software engineer?
Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, I am being specific here. I am referring to rules regarding market manipulation in lit order books of publicly traded securities and derivatives. Those rules are stupid. I don’t think all rules are stupid, just these particular rules. The reason I think the rules are stupid is that they don’t prevent fraud, they just prevent behaviour which is considered pretty legitimate in every other marketplace. Like, a spoof…
A world in which lying is not punished is incompatible with progress.
Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's called the (Eric) Holder doctrine: > That sentiment was echoed as late as 2012 by Lanny Breuer, then the head of the Justice Department’s criminal division, who said in a speech at the New York City Bar Association that he felt it was his duty to consider the health of the company, the industry, and the markets in deciding whether or not to file charges. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/how-w…
That in no way backs up your claim. 1) That was 10 years ago 2) All they said was that they consider the country as a whole when laying charges, they said nothing about they are specifically not charging banks due to this. And the fact that they just laid a huge fine against JPM blows your entire argument out of the water. I can see why you chose to create a throw away account in this case to comment. I now see i'm b…
Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s crazy. If one tried to steal 10k from the bank, you would go to jail. If you steal millions through illegal trade practices, you just pay a fraction of what you stole.
Its not very different from the Flash crash, in 2015 an independent trainer named Navinder Singh Sarao was sued for manipulating the market, he was creating a lot of orders and cancelling them tricking the flash trading computers to push up the prices, he made around 45 million in the process while living in his parent house. In 2020 he was convicted with a year of confinement at home, no jail time, and a trading ban…
One, there is no question that Sarao had nothing to do with the flash crash. The cause of the flash crash was a fund manager adding an extra zero to a trade they were making. The reason Sarao was blamed was to put pressure on him, and because the SEC needed to blame someone for there total failure to properly manage markets (the person who prosecuted the case against Sarao was the person responsible for monitoring electronic trading, she built a huge media profile through this case...no-one ever asked why the only person they charged for this was a disabled guy working out of his parent's bedroom).
Two, Sarao did go to jail in the US and the UK. This in itself was pretty unusual because he admitted to the crime, the crime had never been charged criminally, he explained to prosecutors exactly what he was doing, and he had relatively severe mental health problems which (given that he was totally compliant with prosecutors) should have meant he was never extradited (I believe he was in jail in Chicago, and he became very unwell whilst there). He was extradited to the US because prosecutors wanted to see him suffer (this is also why their first contact was a dawn raid on his parent's house), and it worked because he ended up signing a plea deal for something that he was very unlikely to actually get found guilty for (the case went on for something like 10 years).
Three, the reason why Sarao was charged was because people at HFT firms were losing money due to spoofing. That was it. The person who notified the SEC worked at an HFT firm. Ironically, Sarao himself also attempted to notify the SEC about things HFT firms were doing...nothing happened with that.
Four, people have been spoofing for decades. When markets were still a mix of open outcry and electronic, the largest traders were all spoofers. Saying that spoofing is illegal relies on the notion that once you enter an order, you must have the intention of trading at that price...do you know how to measure intention? The practice was only made illegal when the market went full electronic, and the order book data was being used by HFT firms.
Five, the reason why Sarao didn't go to jail was because the case against him made no sense. He was spoofing, spoofing is illegal but when the SEC raided him (again, highly unusual) he thought that the SEC was actually investigating his previous communications about HFT firms...it wasn't. He gave huge amounts of information to prosecutors about what large firms were doing, apparently he sat them down and went through hours of examples of market manipulation...no cases were brought as a result of this.
Sarao is the archetypal of example who was forced to serve real time at the behest of HFT firms in order to further political aims.
Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)
#159“This action sends the important message that if you engage in manipulative and deceptive trade practices you will be caught, punished, and forced to give up your ill-gotten gains,” added Division of Enforcement Director James McDonald. No, Mr McDonald, it's quite the opposite. The important message is that if your organization can keep the profits from criminal activities higher than the penalties, they can perpetua…
Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Spoofing is as old as time, as are most forms of market manipulation. The algo shops are fortunate that the regulators are accommodating the drawbacks of their machinery. That doesn't mean all of the regulations make sense in the broader context of market activity. "Act fast because these are selling like hotcakes!" "I've got another guy who wants to buy the car for $5k but I'd sell it to you for $6k if you can bring…
The difference is impact - Market for old cars or shoes is not indexed and securitised with a potential to cause a global financial meltdown.
The real problem with market stability is nanosecond liquidity and HFT firms that will pull liquidity when things get dicey. Spoofing largely doesn't occur anymore, and you still see huge swings in prices because the liquidity isn't there anymore...investment banks have been regulated out the market, HFT firms flee at the first sign of trouble, there are relatively few speculators willing to buck the market anymore.