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AWS free tier data transfer expansion

aws.amazon.com

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Re: AWS free tier data transfer expansion

#151

So which cloud provider offers a HARD spend limit? I just want to fund my account e.g. $20/month and never, ever, spend a cent over that. Even if my account gets hacked for bitcoin mining or whatever, I don't want to spend a cent over that. With AWS, you can do it, via a trigger on a spend notification and a script, but the whole thing is a giant kludge. It should be a default feature. It should be a default feature…

Would you be comfortable with losing all of your data and going down when the spend limit is hit? That's fundamentally why this is not as simple as you think

Re: AWS free tier data transfer expansion

#152

So which cloud provider offers a HARD spend limit? I just want to fund my account e.g. $20/month and never, ever, spend a cent over that. Even if my account gets hacked for bitcoin mining or whatever, I don't want to spend a cent over that. With AWS, you can do it, via a trigger on a spend notification and a script, but the whole thing is a giant kludge. It should be a default feature. It should be a default feature…

> So which cloud provider offers a HARD spend limit? It still baffles me that this isn't the default. Then again, egress/ingress costs also baffle me, why not just offer capped speed and unlimited bandwidth? I doubt that i'll ever willingly use a platform that i pay for myself, which can just decide to charge me bunches of money because of my site/app getting DDoS'ed (assuming not all components are fully protected a…

Would you be comfortable with losing all of your data and going down when the spend limit is hit? That's fundamentally why this is not as simple as you think

Re: AWS free tier data transfer expansion

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admittedly, all of these are real issues. The thing is that for a company with 1.816 trillion (1816 billion!) market cap as of today, all of these issues are easily solvable. But it's not a matter of "we can't solve it" or even "we don't have the resources to do it, there is some higher priority problem to tackle first". It's not an engineering problem at all at its heart. It's a marketing/business problem that someo…

> It's not an engineering problem at all at its heart. My point is that it is definitely an engineering problem as well as a product problem. a) It's going to be super technically difficult to build (especially in a way where it's responsive at a granular basis to handle huge blow-up bursts) b) It's not even clear what you're supposed to be building None of what people are proposing is well defined or easy to build.

The type of questions you are mentioning are basically saying different people would need different configuration options and come up every time you design any complex technical feature that is going to be used by millions of people. These are mostly product and UX questions, and NOT engineering ones. The only engineering problem I can think of is the latency in getting real time billing information.

The way you usually solve this is by having sane defaults, and giving users different mechanisms for configuration based on how complex their configuration needs are. This can take a tiered approach.

As an example, simpler and straight forward things (such as disable egress traffic from S3 if the bill exceeds X) can be in the UI itself. Then, for customers who need more control, an option to configure via json or yaml similar to cloud formation. For anyone who needs even more giving an option to call a customer defined lambda function would give them the ability to at any metrics and take appropriate action.

Re: AWS free tier data transfer expansion

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is crystal clear that this comment validates the misunderstanding of how bandwidth is priced in the real world and how, just because Amazon's price model has been reliable, that it must be a viable cost because people pay it. It's unfortunate that the reality you're basing this comment on is so far off base that you've convinced yourself AWS egress fees are somehow "stable". It's also very interesting that you're…

> his entire liveihood and business runs on the fact that AWS pricing is not even remotely clear Corey's business exists because prevailing engineering culture encourages pretty much the entire industry to consider optimization as an afterthought, not because engineers can't understand AWS pricing, or interpret a few bar charts in Cost Explorer, and in the face of a deadline, if it's not on the agile board everyone k…

> Corey's business exists because prevailing engineering culture encourages pretty much the entire industry to consider optimization as an afterthought, not because engineers can't understand AWS pricing, or interpret a few bar charts in Cost Explorer, and in the face of a deadline, if it's not on the agile board everyone knows it doesn't exist.

Nobody is actively encouraging the entire industry to consider optimization as an afterthought. This makes zero sense. Why would an organization pay a business to reduce their AWS costs if it wasn't worth the cost to realize the savings? Cost optimization is an easy task, as you've stated - so the cost/value proposition of a business like The Duckbill Group must not be worth it according to your statement. Yet they exist and do, seemingly, well. Maybe... Just maybe, cost optimization in AWS is not easy, not straightforward, and designed to be painful enough to where smart engineers are incented to leverage Amazon's dark patterns of hiding costs at time of deployment.

You even state...

> 80% of what he does is easily discovered a few clicks away from the AWS home page.

So why is cost optimization a constant point of conversation with AWS if it's so easy? Why do outfits like Digital Ocean advertise on the notion of clear billing as a positive differentiator compared to AWS?

> Cloudflare have a solid sales pipeline, but they're a sitting duck if any of the big clouds ever decide to replicate the business model like-for-like.

Let's take a stroll back in time. Do you think that Amazon and AWS have always posted a profit? Go look, they've posted many quarterly losses to get where they're at. That's how it works as you build a business like that. To your point - AWS does compete directly with Cloudflare in certain products, yet here we are, Cloudflare and AWS both continue to grow (negative operating income / net income are not a direct correlation of company growth BTW). A mistake you've made is around brand and reputation. Nobody thinks of AWS as a security company. Customers continue to buy Palo Alto Networks, Fortinet, Zscaler and, yes, Cloudflare - even though AWS offers some overlapping portfolio. Why? AWS isn't viewed as a security portfolio. Cloudflare has brand reputation in security and content distribution. And it's a pivot that easily works with both their brand and reputation.

> Outside some sweet Javascript cold start hacks they basically have no moat, and there are far more situations that could send the company into desperate measures than otherwise.

This just screams of the competitive argument low-road. I don't have ties to Amazon or AWS. I'm not an employee. When I read statements like this it's affirmation that there's some agenda. I laughed out loud reading that as the closing argument, thanks for that.

Re: AWS free tier data transfer expansion

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not an engineering problem at all at its heart. My point is that it is definitely an engineering problem as well as a product problem. a) It's going to be super technically difficult to build (especially in a way where it's responsive at a granular basis to handle huge blow-up bursts) b) It's not even clear what you're supposed to be building None of what people are proposing is well defined or easy to build.

The type of questions you are mentioning are basically saying different people would need different configuration options and come up every time you design any complex technical feature that is going to be used by millions of people. These are mostly product and UX questions, and NOT engineering ones. The only engineering problem I can think of is the latency in getting real time billing information. The way you usua…

> NOT engineering ones

Engineering problems:

1. How do you actually have a billing system reach out to every other system? It has to resolve the resource, network with it, have IAM permissions, a network route, etc.

2. How do you handle consistency?

3. How do you make it responsive?

4. How do you add this to every billable entity?

I mean, it's just a shitload of work, and all of that just to get to a terrible idea.

> The way you usually solve this is by having sane defaults, and giving users different mechanisms for configuration based on how complex their configuration needs are. This can take a tiered approach.

The sane default is you pay for what you use, and you can listen to billing events and build all of the logic you're talking about if you want to.

Re: AWS free tier data transfer expansion

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So which cloud provider offers a HARD spend limit? It still baffles me that this isn't the default. Then again, egress/ingress costs also baffle me, why not just offer capped speed and unlimited bandwidth? I doubt that i'll ever willingly use a platform that i pay for myself, which can just decide to charge me bunches of money because of my site/app getting DDoS'ed (assuming not all components are fully protected a…

Would you be comfortable with losing all of your data and going down when the spend limit is hit? That's fundamentally why this is not as simple as you think

> Would you be comfortable with losing all of your data and going down when the spend limit is hit?

This doesn't feel to me like a generous enough statement about all of the finer points.

Would i be okay with my servers no longer responding to web requests (or doing so with reduced port speeds with some of the above hosts, e.g. Time4VPS) in case of spending limits being unexpectedly hit? Yes, definitely, since my projects going dark for a bit or slowing down would be preferable to me ending up not being able to pay my rent and having to rely on public outcry about the large bill and the vendor's mood that day towards letting that one slide.

Would i be okay with my servers running out of space and no longer writing new data to any database, merely responding with the appropriate errors instead? Yes, definitely, because that probably signals the fact that for some reason lots of space has suddenly started getting used for no reason, something that happened so fast that i didn't even get to plan the appropriate scaling, once Zabbix would warn me about 80% of the disk being full (or any monitoring tool would have an alert set up for this). This would probably also be yet another sanity check.

Would i be okay with my servers suddenly ceasing to exist and being wiped from existence, for any reason short of excessive abuse complaints or repeated ToS violations? I most certainly wouldn't want this to happen, yet in my experience it has never actually happened - some of the vendors listed allow you to pre pay for the resources you're about to use (e.g. Time4VPS and Contabo), even offering discounts for longer term reservations much like AWS does, without unexpected charges to you like AWS would do. In contrast, some of the other vendors listed allow you to pay based on hourly usage (Hetzner, Scaleway, Vultr, DigitalOcean, at least IIRC), but also won't have unpredictable pricing spikes because of set limits for the most part (ingress/egress charges may still apply, however, a worrying trend in the industry that muddies the waters), if i pay for a 5$ VPS every month, that's what i can expect to pay most months regardless of usage (assuming 100% uptime).

With these factors in mind, my servers being wiped would probably have to happen due to either me misusing those services, or alternatively me failing to pay the bills even with the more predictable pricing structures, which is actually very much like a person's electricity being turned off due to them not paying for it - as unpleasant as that'd be, no surprises there. Personally, i don't subscribe to the belief that managed services with unpredictable billing are the only way to do software nowadays, something that Richard Stallman coined as SaaSS (Services as a Software Substitute) and about which you can read more here: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s...

Alas, as long VPS uptime with predefined resources is the unit of computation that you're paying for, everything else should be fairly simple from there onwards.

Re: AWS free tier data transfer expansion

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but then you have to use Oracle

I've used Oracle Cloud, and it's actually pretty nice and well-designed at least from my point of view. It gives the AWS Dashboard a run for their m̵o̵n̵e̵y̵ egress fees. But I still don't run anything important on it or push the limits of the free tier. Oracle doesn't have a good reputation. Also "Oracle Unbreakable Linux" is literally just RHEL rebranded, but it's not a community project and they don't like to ackn…

People have reported having their Oracle servers shut down without warning for the horrendous crime of... running IRC servers.

Re: AWS free tier data transfer expansion

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but then you have to use Oracle

Can someone educate me on why Oracle is bad? I don’t have much experience with dealing with them as a company. Only used their database before.

https://ariadne.space/2021/07/14/oracle-cloud-sucks/ this person had their account terminated for the crime of running an IRC server.

Re: AWS free tier data transfer expansion

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be comfortable with losing all of your data and going down when the spend limit is hit? That's fundamentally why this is not as simple as you think

> Would you be comfortable with losing all of your data and going down when the spend limit is hit? This doesn't feel to me like a generous enough statement about all of the finer points. Would i be okay with my servers no longer responding to web requests (or doing so with reduced port speeds with some of the above hosts, e.g. Time4VPS) in case of spending limits being unexpectedly hit? Yes, definitely, since my pro…

As long as you are paying by the minute for server time and by the byte-hour for storage, running out of money means you don't get any more minutes or any more byte-hours. No more server time means your servers just vanish into the ether. It doesn't mean they start returning error pages of being unable to write to the database.

They don't reach into your servers and meddle with your nginx configuration. They don't shrink your disk volumes to the amount that's already in use. That wouldn't be possible.

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