Goodbye and good riddance. Rust is growing up, and it absolutely does not need a cadre of petulant preteens claiming moral authority over every user of the language (or at least every user who wants to discuss the language with others in public).
Rust Moderation Team Resigns
151–160 of 912 posts
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#152I can understand the moderation team not going object-level in the name of professionalism, especially given that [whoever this really means something to] probably already know exactly what's up. That doesn't make it any less strange or jarring to someone on the outside looking in. Can anyone provide context?
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
Counterexample: Linux, GCC, Python, and practically the entire free software ecosystem from before the current crazy for hall-monitory-y supervision from above. It is simply demonstrably, factually, clearly not true that a growing community needs the kind of structures that Rust imposed on itself. It really makes me sad that a certain kind of person these days sees some kind of censorious overlord as essential for th…
> Zero people in the real world avoided using the Linux kernel because Linus was brusque. Actually, the best example of a project where the leadership of the project was so toxic as to drive away potential contributors would probably be glibc under Ulrich Drepper, which got so bad that most distributions abandoned glibc for the eglibc fork. (See https://lwn.net/Articles/488847/ for a high-level discussion).
Drepper was an asshole and people eventually routed around him, yes. The system worked. What people forget, too, is that Drepper's problem wasn't just an obnoxious personal style, but a ridiculous level of technical conservativism that led to critical bugs remaining unfixed for years. It was the latter problem that eventually prompted people to fork glibc, not the former.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#154I have used Rust for years, but I never bothered with looking into the governance structure. How are team members selected? Who has authority to kick someone off a team? How are team leads selected? Who can remove team leads? Is it the core team? If so, who picks the core team? I can't find anything online, except this very bare-bones WIP stub. [1] This seems to be a glaring and surprising oversight. Especially at th…
The core team is responsible for -
Managing the overall direction of Rust, subteam leadership, and any cross-cutting issues
It doesn't sound like they directly work on the compiler?
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#155> In this message, we have avoided airing specific grievances beyond unaccountability. We've chosen to maintain discretion and confidentiality. We recommend that the broader Rust community and the future Mod Team exercise extreme skepticism of any statements by the Core Team (or members thereof) claiming to illuminate the situation. Isn't that a kind of scorched earth statement? I read it as "we will be discreet and…
it's very similar to working in a corporation and seeing someone get fired. the company is bound by legal concerns to not reveal why the person was fired, which leaves everyone else wondering if the person had done something fireable or if the company was playing politics with power. i've heard netflix does things a bit differently. when people are asked to leave, their manager sends an email out to everyone explaini…
> the company is bound by legal concerns to not reveal why the person was fired
I think this is a fairly common misconception. While you might sign an anti disparagement agreement when you were hired, those tend to be one-way and designed to protect the company. And the bar to prove a defamation case is extremely high.
AIUI, most employers simply do not disclose details on firings as a matter of policy, not law.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
I love Rust the language, and the community is generally good, but for whatever reason modern identity politics has always been looming around its key members. Maybe just because it spun out of Mozilla and the Brendan Eich debacle, who knows.
I'm not seeing any connection between the linked discussions and identity politics, and I'm certainly not seeing any connection with Brendan Eich. Hopefully not every thread that involves reference to a CoC has to automatically turn in to a grievance bin for people who have a bone to pick with identity politics.
It's actually the opposite. In a repeat of what happened previously in the NPM community, people are asking for the CoC to actually be enforced _because of_ identity politics, rather than associating CoCs with identity politics.
Going around saying things like "Kill all men" is just about as obvious as a CoC violation can get.
Additionally, having members of the same governance body that are romantically involved probably isn't very effective strategically.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
How exactly are the groups of people working on various parts of the official ecosystem supposed to coordinate their efforts? The only alternative I've seen is a benevolent dictator, which seems significantly worse for a number of reasons. Edit: it looks like you've removed the part about Teams/Committees.
yea, sorry, I tend to over-use the "edit" button and treat "submit" as "save draft". > How exactly are the groups of people working on various parts of the official ecosystem supposed to coordinate their efforts? The only alternative I've seen is a benevolent dictator, which seems significantly worse for a number of reasons. Yeah, I guess I'm just getting old. The idea of an open source project with enough people to…
It's our industry that's getting old. You used to be able to start a big project like a compiler or a browser and have some hope of producing a functional result "organically" (for lack of a better word). But we've reached the point where we're no longer just scrabbling together hovels with scrap wood, we're trying to build the Pyramids or the Hoover Dam now. A few anonymous internet denizens are not going to be able to accomplish that.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#158Is there any tech consequence to this immature drama? I'm confused as to whether I should care or not. If there are consequences on the tech, people need to spell that out. Right now this all seems like some middle-school playground emotional drama. I'm too old to care about that.
No, an immature drama would have people slinging feces. This is a highly mature drama where the arguments are dry, generic and adhere to a strict code of values. No fingers were pointed, and the offended party is taking the high road by resigning. It's not often that people behave in a mature fashion, so I fully understand you did not recognise it for what it is.
What exactly is 'mature' about making a vague accusation, refusing to substantiate it and claiming that if the other side says anything it would be a lie?
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#159Why does a language need a “moderation team”? C++ seems to do fine without one.
To give folks who are privileged and well connected but have not put in the time and effort to be able to make technical contributions a chance to put participation in a trendy OSS community on their resume.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
To me, this line of thought is backwards. It stems from seeing the people issues as small stuff and the tech issues as the "real deal"... At the end of the day new features for popular language X are not that life-or-death (although I'm sure some Rust evangelist will claim the safety of it means it could save lives, ignoring things like MISRA) - If someone is being an asshole and damaging moral for real "meatspace" h…
You see - this comment is so vague, I still have no idea what (in the tech) they're fighting about.
What?
My comment is vague because this is a common line of thought:
"Project X is having people problems"
"What is this childish drama distracting from the technical stuff they should be accomplishing"
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Their post is vague because they're mature enough to not want to turn this into a public lynching. It's on their replacements to handle it.
There's a certain irony in the fact you don't realize that...