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Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment falls due

reuters.com

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Re: Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment falls due

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well this time they already were inside a 30-day grace period which as of 3 hours ago they missed aswell, hence the default.

It's unclear if they paid or not, even last time the creditors received the Money the day after the 30 days had passed. It seems they didn't but we won't know until tomorrow or so.

One organization who states that they are a creditor has published a letter stating that they've not been paid

https://twitter.com/dhthakur745/status/1458499174026997760?s...

Re: Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment falls due

#152

> Shares of developer Fantasia Holdings (1777.HK) plunged 50% on Wednesday after it said there was no guarantee it would be able to meet its other financial obligations following a missed payment of $205.7 million due on Oct. 4. Watch the US bond market closely. Today saw a sharp selloff on the 10-year maturity, a favorite "asset" of foreign governments and companies. When those organizations get into trouble, they s…

> The dollar spiked past a key technical level today. I don't know much about "technical" forex trading, but I can say that USD/CNY didn't really change today, neither did USD/CAD, or USD/GBP. Everything is around where it's been over the past few weeks. Are you saying the real exchange rates will significantly change soon?

Short term USD/CNY is clamped by Chinese government currency purchases.

People will only notice when China decides its FX is running low

Re: Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment falls due

#153

How much exposure does the Western world have to this? My guess would be "not much". It'll sting some emerging market investors, but I don't think you'll see a massive knock-on here.

My guess is the opposite :) Chinese bonds have nice high yields and there's a load of money from western companies looking for yield.

Until recently they were considered (by most people) to be a relatively safe bet, so why wouldn't there be a load of money in there...

Re: Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment falls due

#154
post #67
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government should do everything* to protect me, the citizen. *Except the things that make me confused and angry, even if they benefit other citizens. Welcome to neoliberal hell.

Bashing on neolibs and alt-right isn't going to solve anything. The problem with politics is the left knows it's not always right.

I want to understand that second sentence better. Is it the same sentiment as the Bukowski quote stating “The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence”?

Re: Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment falls due

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think anyone doubts that China is an economic superpower They are, but the foundation is rickety. Xi is a dictator. That increases the odds of catastrophic failure. Were an economic collapse to become protracted, it's not hard to imagine separatist movements and competing power sectors turning to violence as a political tool.

People have been talking about the "rickety foundation" of China for decades. I'm sure when they have an economic downturn sometime in the next two decades, those people will all come out to crow about how they had been right all along. To me, they seem to be building on top of a more modern infrastructure base and do not have the super-prevalent NIMBY problems that exist in the West.

> People have been talking about the "rickety foundation" of China for decades

Economically, sure. (Those always struck me as sour grapes or a fundamental misunderstanding of how debt works in a centrally-planned economy.)

Politically, however, the CCP had intraparty competition that avoided the sort of rot that felled the Soviets. It also kept the Party thinking long term. Hong Kong and Taiwan are good examples of Xi's impatience. Absent intervention, Hong Kong would have uncontroversially folded into China in 2047. The combination of China's military and economic prowess, then, could have encouraged peaceful unification with Taiwan. But Xi was impatient. He wanted it in his lifetime. So he rushed Hong Kong and screwed up not only Taiwan, but relations with all his neighbors, from the Philippines to India.

Dictators like to style themselves as monarchs. But monarchy has a continuity that dictatorships don't. That makes them more impatient and more unstable, particularly at the transfer of power.

Re: Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment falls due

#156

There has been talk for years about China's wild construction programs, creating entire cities that nobody lives in. It was obviously unsustainable. Could it be finally falling apart?

China builds housing in advance of demand. In the United States, we fail to build housing even in the face of demand.

There's pros and cons to either system, but so far, the demand has largely arrived. The ghost cities of 2010 are now bustling metropolises. The ghost cities of 2020... Are on track to become bustling metropolises.

China has added ~500 million people to its cities over the past 50 years. 'Build in anticipation of demand' seems like a sensible approach to this sort of thing.

Re: Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment falls due

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mark Levine had some good thoughts on this situation, and it really does seem to encapsulate the entire Chinese "free market" experiment in a single entity. I hope that market regulators all around the planet are paying attention to the challenges of trying to "control" market movements in order to promote an agenda (whether it is protecting pension funds or national prestige). If you've got your "thumb on the scale"…

Do you mean Matt Levine? If not, could you give a link, please?

Yes, Matt, and I get the newsletter so I don't know where the link is, but here is an excerpt: EDIT found the link: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-09-21/evergr...

From Matt Levine:

It seems to me that what is interesting about Evergrande is not so much the magnitude of its debt problems but their variety. Evergrande owes money to Chinese banks. It owes money to foreign hedge funds, and foreign investors own its stock. It owes money to suppliers, and to Chinese retail investors in those wealth management products. And it owes apartments to buyers. And the retail investors who bought Evergrande wealth management products were often also Evergrande homeowners, because the products were sold at Evergrande buildings:

    “My parents put the bulk of their savings, which is Rmb200,000 and not a lot by Evergrande’s standard, into its [wealth management products],” said the daughter of one investor who asked to be identified by her surname Xu. 

    She said an Evergrande financial adviser stationed in an apartment tower built by the company in central China had persuaded her mother to invest. “They wouldn’t have trusted Evergrande’s wealth products had they not bought the developer’s apartment,” she said.
In fact they were apparently advertised in the elevators:

    "I bought from the property managers after seeing the ad in the elevator, as I trusted Evergrande for being a Fortune Global 500 company,” said the owner of an Evergrande property in the conglomerate's home province of Guangdong surnamed Du.
And it also sold the wealth management products to employees:

    When the troubled Chinese property giant Evergrande was starved for cash earlier this year, it turned to its own employees with a strong-arm pitch: Those who wanted to keep their bonuses would have to give Evergrande a short-term loan.

    Some workers tapped their friends and family for money to lend to the company. Others borrowed from the bank. Then, this month, Evergrande suddenly stopped paying back the loans, which had been packaged as high-interest investments. …

    The extent of the campaign and how much money it might have raised were unclear. Employees were told to each invest a certain amount of money in Evergrande Wealth products, and that if they failed to do so, their performance pay and bonuses would be docked, employees told Anhui.
These products were simultaneously (1) “categorised as fixed-income products suitable for ‘conservative investors seeking steady returns’” and (2) sold with 11% yields. Seems bad!

When a big company runs out of money, the basic questions are (1) who gets paid and who doesn’t and (2) should the government pay its debts for it? Those questions are interconnected. There is an ordinary way to answer the first question, some waterfall of claim seniority. You look at the company’s capital structure and say “well these people have senior claims and will get paid back, and these people have junior claims and won’t, and these other people are somewhere in the middle and might get some recovery.” And there are complex and subtle questions about the best way to preserve value in the business: Perhaps you have the legal right to stiff customers (perhaps their deposits aren’t particularly senior claims), but if you do that you’ll never get any more customers, so you treat them better than you are legally required to. And the managers of the business and the creditors and the lawyers work together to figure out a plan that maximizes the recovery for everyone.

But if the ordinary process to answer the first question ends up with an answer like “sympathetic ordinary people lose their life savings,” or “politically connected people lose everything,” or “the banking system loses a lot of money and becomes undercapitalized,” or for that matter “housing prices collapse,” then that is a good reason for the government to step in. And if the government is stepping in, there is no particular reason to assume that the ordinary claims of seniority will apply. If the government steps in to rescue small investors or the banking system or housing prices, that doesn’t necessarily mean it will also rescue foreign hedge funds.

Bloomberg’s Joe Weisenthal and Tracy Alloway did an Odd Lots episode with analyst Travis Lundy about this, in which he gives his best guess at a waterfall of repayment. “I think that if you start from the ranking of who ends up coming out well on this, if you had to ask, this is the Communist Party of China who's the most important stakeholder in this,” he says, and then goes through a list of claimants ordered by, basically, how politically sympathetic they are. This seems like a more reasonable analysis than, like, looking at the corporate structure and legal document to see which claims are more senior.

Much of the writing about Evergrande has been about “is this China’s Lehman moment?” The main lesson of Lehman was that the collapse of a big levered interconnected firm could cause serious economic damage, and since Lehman, financial regulators in the U.S. and Europe have done a lot of work on reducing leverage and interconnection and damage.

Re: Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment falls due

#158

> Shares of developer Fantasia Holdings (1777.HK) plunged 50% on Wednesday after it said there was no guarantee it would be able to meet its other financial obligations following a missed payment of $205.7 million due on Oct. 4. Watch the US bond market closely. Today saw a sharp selloff on the 10-year maturity, a favorite "asset" of foreign governments and companies. When those organizations get into trouble, they s…

No comment on the content of the lynalden.com post (haven't read the entire thing yet), but for the love of pete, blog writers, please make sure you put a date on your posts. Especially when you're discussing something that involves current events.

Re: Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment falls due

#159
post #131
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your theory that the US government will run out of dollars? How do you imagine that will happen - a paper shortage?

I think the OP is saying that you can have a situation where the short term demand for dollars outstrips the supply available at that given time (think in terms of hours or days). This could lead to a sharp but short increase in the value of the dollar, since there's only a limited, albeit extremely large, amount available on the market at any given time.

The bank needing the currency asks the central bank for the extra currency and it’s simply a number in a “database” somewhere. It can be done rather quickly.

Re: Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment falls due

#160

Speaking of misleading headlines: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/10/business/evergrande-bond-... https://archive.md/cPsjv "China Evergrande meets a Wednesday payment deadline for two of its bonds." On multiple levels, too. "It was not immediately clear whether it had made payment on the third bond, which matures in 2024, or if all of the investors in the other two bonds had received payment." So basically they MIGHT…

Apologies for responding to my own post, but if you do a Google news search for Evergrande the first link that pops up is: https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/evergrande-met-todays-bond-... The title on Google News is "Evergrande Met Today's Bond Payment Deadline" but if you click to the article the headline changes to "Evergrande met at least part of today's bond payment deadline". What is going on here?

Caching.
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