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How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

blog.robertelder.org

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Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#151

Post by YetAnotherNick »

wrycoder wrote: post #145
R0b0t1 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Europeans are afraid of everything. I was trying to avoid a comment that seemed politically charged but I don't know any other way to say it. I was into hobby chemistry for a while -- people trying to do anything in the EU find it almost impossible. Poland and Eastern Europe are better about it, but eh.

Even in the US, chemistry is avoided and even deplored. Where are the Christmas chemistry sets of yore? People are scared to death by anything having to do with “chemistry”, yet they think nothing of jumping into brewing.

Being scared and being banned are two separate things. If you want to see how many dangerous chemicals are available online in US see Cody's lab or NileRed.

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#152

Post by wrycoder »

lookingforsome wrote: post #148
wrycoder wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While energy, and thus CO2, is a significant part of solar cell production (because of the sheer scale), the attributed CO2 output of the chip industry is tiny compared to the commercial value of the chips produced.

so carbon tax would be effective in this scenario?

Current C-suite culture should suffice.

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#153

Post by GhettoComputers »

wrycoder wrote: post #86
GhettoComputers wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is refined and doped, my point is that he leaves out the sourcing of essential materials that you don't refine but must get that is already pure, it has to be purer than any random silicon its like saying just get any sand that people will assume comes from beaches for construction when its essential that they are not worn or have rounded edges, except this is so specialized that it must come from one mine in…

The BBC article is referring to high purity quartz, not silicon. It is used to make a quartz crucible - a large cup - of that high purity quartz. It’s essential that the crucible not contaminate the polysilicon. (A note in passing: the semi industry doesn’t use hyperpure silicon. They use a lesser grade and add epitaxial layers.) The crucible can stand the high temperature of molten silicon. The purified polycrystall…

You are right I mixed up silica and silicon my mistake. I found the wired article thats now paywalled and I mixed those two up. https://web.archive.org/web/20180808115837/https://www.wired...

>It would be interesting to know if the industry is still using natural quartz crucibles - the latest wafer size is now 450 mm - nearly 18 inches. Maybe someone else here can comment whether the traditional pulling process will be used at 450 mm.

Is that why they're round even though chips are square? Are the round parts thrown away or do they use them somehow? Reminds me of chicago style thin crust. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago-style_pizza#Thin-crust...

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#154

Post by 69Represente »

kayson wrote: post #24

Circuit designer here - feel free to ask any questions about the manufacturing process, design etc. Having a thorough understanding of the process, I thought this was hilarious. But if you really want to understand the process, it's pretty terrible. It spends 10 steps on making a wafer, and then the bulk of the actual process is condensed to 16.

which company would you invest in?

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#155

Post by GhettoComputers »

freedomben wrote: post #26
kayson wrote: post #24

Circuit designer here - feel free to ask any questions about the manufacturing process, design etc. Having a thorough understanding of the process, I thought this was hilarious. But if you really want to understand the process, it's pretty terrible. It spends 10 steps on making a wafer, and then the bulk of the actual process is condensed to 16.

Not what you were offering so feel free to ignore this, but I'm super curious about RISC-V. Do you know if any serious attempts are happening to make RISC-V based systems? And if not, do you know why? Is it too raw/un-polished?

Yes, it has no licensing fees, and its being used in pinepen, some small electronics like calculators, and do you mean dev kits like this? They are arduino like devices with low power edge AI/neural capabilities. https://www.seeedstudio.com/sipeed

On linux, they are making one with an allwinner chip called the D1. https://www.hackster.io/news/sipeed-teases-linux-capable-64-...

RISC-V is not inherently better or more secure, its a different instruction set with no fees, so anyone can make one, its possible to be less secure.

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#156

Post by GhettoComputers »

zokier wrote: post #116
GhettoComputers wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the same game but if you like that genre zachtronics is really good at logic games and has assembly programming. https://zachtronics.com/tis-100/ >Print and explore the TIS-100 manual, which details the inner-workings of the TIS-100 while evoking the aesthetics of a vintage computer manual! >Solve more than 20 puzzles, competing against your friends and the world to minimize your cycle, instruction, and node coun…

Well, if Zachtronics is mentioned, then worth pointing out that the older games fit the CPU manufacturing theme better. He had a game literally called "Silicon Foundry" which used premade blocks, and then KOHCTPYKTOP which got more into the nitty gritty

I think the problem with zachtronics games is that many people feel "I would rather program at this point", did you ever feel that way too?

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#157

Post by wrycoder »

GhettoComputers wrote: post #153
wrycoder wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The BBC article is referring to high purity quartz, not silicon. It is used to make a quartz crucible - a large cup - of that high purity quartz. It’s essential that the crucible not contaminate the polysilicon. (A note in passing: the semi industry doesn’t use hyperpure silicon. They use a lesser grade and add epitaxial layers.) The crucible can stand the high temperature of molten silicon. The purified polycrystall…

You are right I mixed up silica and silicon my mistake. I found the wired article thats now paywalled and I mixed those two up. https://web.archive.org/web/20180808115837/https://www.wired... >It would be interesting to know if the industry is still using natural quartz crucibles - the latest wafer size is now 450 mm - nearly 18 inches. Maybe someone else here can comment whether the traditional pulling process will…

I had not heard of Spruce Pine - thanks for the references! In the very interesting Wired article you linked, I notice that the quartz goes to GE, which spins it into crucibles. So, I guess the size is unlimited.

The current silicon ingots are amazing - cylinders a foot and a half in diameter and maybe six feet long. They are handled with cranes.

The ingots are so large and the chips so small that there isn’t much waste. The edges are often used for test patterns.

The chips don’t have to be rectangular, but it’s easier, because they are separated with diamond saws or wire saws, which cut straight lines.

Some companies make photosensors in weird shapes using ultrasonic cutters.

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#158

Post by wk_end »

lookingforsome wrote: post #147
XnoiVeX wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you knew enough VHDL you can make your own digital chips including CPUs using off the shelf FPGAs... https://blog.classycode.com/implementing-a-cpu-in-vhdl-part-...

how steep is the learning curve for VHDL?

I find VHDL unpleasant (and Verilog only slightly less so, even if it's the worse language) but the hard part for someone with a programming background isn't the language per se, it's learning how to design digital logic, which is very different from writing software.

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#159

Post by wrycoder »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #151
wrycoder wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in the US, chemistry is avoided and even deplored. Where are the Christmas chemistry sets of yore? People are scared to death by anything having to do with “chemistry”, yet they think nothing of jumping into brewing.

Being scared and being banned are two separate things. If you want to see how many dangerous chemicals are available online in US see Cody's lab or NileRed.

NileRed is particularly good.

I rather think that Cody is a bad influence, of the kind that could attract unneeded regulations.

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#160

Post by mikewarot »

nynx wrote: post #54

It'd be really awesome if microprocessors, even at a low-end process node like 130 nm, could be made with room-sized machines or smaller. There's a lot of space for companies wanted to manufacture their own MCUs, for instance, without relying on massive supply chains. I think this'll happen at some point, as silicon manufacturing hits final roadblocks and becomes increasingly commoditized, but it'd be nice if it were…

I wonder what other processes could be used instead of photolithography to etch the silicon, deposit metal, etc? If you had a machine that started with a doped wafer, and worked one gate at a time, instead of a whole layer at a time, it would be way slower, but could, in theory be testable as it goes, and produce arbitrarily complex chips.

Also, I wonder what other materials might work, even if they are much slower, lower power, etc. Copper Oxide, for example?

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