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Fundamentals of Piano Practice

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Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on what in it helped change your practice approach? I tried reading it a while back and I couldn’t really get past the style. I’m sure there is good advice in there, but it’s very off putting due to the rambling style.

The main takeaways for me were: - Do not try to practice the whole piece at once. Split it into pieces - Start by listening to the piece. If possible get multiple performances/recordings (usually easy with YouTube) to get a feel for different interpretations. - Take the piece and number each measure from 1 to finish. Figure out where the repetitions are, which measures are the easiest, which the hardest (this will di…

That's very good advice if one's well disciplined. The trouble is many of are not and it's why we need a good teacher to keep us on the straight-and-narrow.

My teacher was forever nagging me to "play what's written, not my interpretation of it". She'd also tell me to "go home and practice the actual lesson", boring Czerny scales or such, "...and not muck around and waste time playing songbook stuff that I liked the sound of".

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an undergrad degree in piano. The problem is that at higher levels it becomes more dependent on your own biology. Some of it is hand size, some of it is the layout of the tendons in your hands - some people get tendon click in ways that other people don't. Practicing includes the identification of the fingerings that can work for you. I don't think AI will ever get you all the way there. Sure, you can put in s…

Thanks for the insights. For casual adult playing though, I'd never reach" high level" playing. All I want is to play easy songs I like (I'm sure there are plenty of people like me), for which I think an automatic algorithm is pretty likely to work.

(Pianist here) But there is no objectively correct fingering, it's just what feels best/easiest/smoothest for you, personally. Having to read the fingering as well as the notes just seems to make it more complicated.

Even for the simplest music, say a C major triad chord in the right hand - C-E-G - you could play it 1-3-5, 1-2-4, 1-2-3, 2-3-5 etc. I have big hands, so 1-3-5 feels the least comfortable of those, although it may be the 'automatic' choice. I agree with what others have said, that learning scales and arpeggios teaches you almost all you need to know about sensible fingerings on piano, and then having fingering pre-written on any music is entirely unnecessary. Books of scales and arpeggios have fingering written in, which you should learn.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#153
post #68

Have to chime-in here as a piano player since age 7 (so been going for ~28 now), who about 2 years ago got very serious about Jazz. I have stumbled across this book many times, I have read it. It's the single most controversial book that I've read about piano technique and playing that I've found. The author, is not even a player himself (!!!). There's a great summary of reviews about the book here ( https://www.pian…

I can't help but agree. I've been playing piano since childhood too, though in a desultory, non-Conservatory way. It's been great fun reading through this comment section and seeing Piano HN, but I'm really surprised that this is the first comment that acknowledges the skub-nature [0] of the book, and that the author doesn't actually play piano but in fact armchair-QBs it via observation and discussion with his two d…

Also agree but the author makes (among others) a couple of excellent points worth emphasizing: anyone (if they're motivated) can learn to play the piano well and acquiring technique is mostly a process of brain/nerve development because the you are improving your brain while learning piano.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#154
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, I didn't think any adult would try to learn instrument as an adult with goal of making money. I guess I happened to know professional amazing orchestra players who practiced hours every day since they were 6... And were mostly still dirt poor. So when I started piano lessons at tender age of 40, it did not come with any illusions of riches and fame compared to wizards who were three and a half decades ah…

What's the deal with learning basic notation being made to be so difficult? It's by far one of the easiest parts of learning to play an instrument. >It is NOT intuitive and you won't benefit from it immediately. What? How do you hope to play anything other than basic melodies if you can't read music? You'd have to develop your ear, which is much harder than learning to read music x) > Especially as piano has differen…

Primarily, it's about payoff / benefit.

Imagine you're 40 years old and you've never played an instrument. You have limited ambition - you want to have fun and play a little bit around campfire. How do you start, let's say on a guitar:

1. I show you G, C, D chords and print out a simple, easily understandable chart you can take home. You now can play hundreds of songs after 30 min lesson and a few mins of practice. You can spend time playing around and slowly learning rhythm, strumming techniques and patterns, while singing to your songs and getting a feel for your instrument. A week or three later I show you E-minor and now you can play virtually every pop song made in last 20 years. [1] If you get excited and interested, we throw in Aminor, and eventually F Major and now you know power chords and you're the master of it all. You're having fun, you're playing, you're improving, and you're having FUN. You can focus on good techniques and sounding good. When and if you want more, we can learn basic music theory and pentatonic patterns, and then one day if you're serious and ready for some pain, you can learn some staff notation.

Or!

2. I give you some books and tell you to learn notes. You download an app or six to enable you to mindlessly practices notes every day. You spend months studying by rote and can maybe play Twinkle Twinkle Little star, poorly. But it's academic because you gave up a long time before you got there as there was no FUN to be had and you have children and work and household chores and this is a poor investment of your precious, precious time.

>>How do you hope to play anything other than basic melodies if you can't read music?

I mean, it's 2021. Look around. We are SPOILED for choices when it comes to learning! There's pianote and flowkey and casio lk line and songsterr and YouTube and tablature and karaoke apps and anything and everything. It's wonderful and we should embrace that every person can learn differently and enjoy themselves! :)

FWIW, I've played Amelie on piano, Green Onions on organ, I want to Break free on synth and made some small synthwave songs entirely from scratch without reading music (but with thorough understanding of what I was playing - keys and changes and transitions and inversions) . I've recorded a cover version of White room including Rhythm and Solo, and now play bass in a 3 piece band, for fun, without needing to read music. Yes I've learned it eventually, but frankly as a 43 year old it's brought no benefit yet in the two years since I've done so.

YES if you are a pro dedicated musician interacting with others you must learn it. But I think a lot of old-school musicians forget or don't want to understand what it's like to be a casual adult player who just wants to have some fun and jam. Empathy is lacking. Just because previous generation went through some enforced painful rite of passage, doesn't mean everybody has to - let's have an actual discussion on specific customized learning path that benefits each person's goals and constraints.

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Second point, I firmly believe, especially for Hacker-News audience, is that learning staff notation too early is counter-productive. It gives enormous undeserved privilege and primacy to C major and it prevents you from making crucial connections early on. In Western 12 note equal temperament, there are 12 notes. That's it, 12 notes, repeating. You can start wherever you want and it's the same. You don't care if you start from C or Bb. There are patterns and intervals and triads and chords and things that sound good that are completely relative and you can learn SO much without staff notation messing you up. Then you do learn staff notation, and you realize it's always lying to you. The spaces on staff notation are not representative to anything in the real world. Between E and F there's one semitone; but between F and G there are two semitones, even though they are the same spacing on the staff. And if you move from the safety of C major to anything else, you are SCREEEEEWED as na adult student wanting to have fun. Notation stops any pretense of sense logic and patterns and it's a quagmire of flats and sharps you're supposed to remember as you painfully make your way through. It takes something beautiful, built on relative patterns, and jams that lovely circle into jagged square hole that's on fire. Yes, eventually, you need to learn the same stupid crippling language everybody else uses, but that's not in any way to say that the language is beautiful or practical or helpful. It's just the notation we're stuck in Western music.

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I think most importantly, a lot of people completely conflate "music theory" with "staff notation".

I've spent a long time reading "Music Theory books" which just want to teach you staff notation, which has zero explanatory powers (and I firmly believe has negative initial explanatory value). Finally, I came upon on this [2] book, which starts with "If you want to learn staff notation, awesome; we have a sibling book for that; but this is a book on music theory which is independent on any specific notation system". I read that book and every page was revelation and insight and made me a better player. Modern motivated geeky interested enthusiastic adults don't have to be stuck in the method that our grandparents taught captive 10 year olds.

I dunno, maybe it'll blow your mind, maybe you cannot see it, but I could discuss dominant 7th and minor harmonics and modes and pentatonics and intervals and triads and augmented & diminished and all that good, meaty, fun, fascinating, geeky stuff with my instructor without needing or referencing staff notation at all.

>>It's because the grand staff is centered around middle C.

That explains precisely nothing. It's not even circular, it's a rote memorized factoid thrown out instead of explanation that can be understood and discussed. The bass and treble are off by two. Two!!! If you truly cannot see that for a student, let alone for anybody, it would've been better if Piano staffs were same notes but one or two straight octaves apart, I feel you're not making an effort to see it from anybody else's eyes. My challenge is to find a practical, discussable reason two hands on same piano are off by two notes on staff that has inherent value and cannot be trivially reduced to "because 18th century grouchy Austrians said so" :)

>>It's by far one of the easiest parts of learning to play an instrument.

Well that's just wrong, but we can agree to STROOOONGLY disagree on this one :P

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOlDewpCfZQ

2: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1986061833/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_...

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#155
This book claims to be the answer to "I am a diligent student so why do I suck?" Having skimmed the first thirty pages, I can assure you the question remains unanswered (the author, being talented, really doesn't get it from our plebe view).

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#156
post #68

Have to chime-in here as a piano player since age 7 (so been going for ~28 now), who about 2 years ago got very serious about Jazz. I have stumbled across this book many times, I have read it. It's the single most controversial book that I've read about piano technique and playing that I've found. The author, is not even a player himself (!!!). There's a great summary of reviews about the book here ( https://www.pian…

Can I ask you what your path into jazz has been like? I've been playing myself for like 25 years, classically trained for my whole childhood. I've always enjoyed improvisation and love jazz piano so much, but I've found it really hard to build from my very limited improv vocabulary into "serious" jazz, and I've had a hard time learning how to learn jazz, if that makes sense.

My unasked for 2c: (Jazz pianist here, did classical piano from very young, then started jazz at about 12)

- listen a lot to the greats and the players you love. The most common problem I see in students is them not listening to much/any jazz and expecting to be able to sound good.

- transcribe a lot, solos you love but dont know what they're doing. Solos on any instrument. Then play them. (If you can play them without transcribing them, great.)

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#157

From the last section in Chapter One, titled "Jazz, Fake Books, and Improvisation": > In summary, the process of learning this genre consists of practicing the chords and scales sufficiently so that, given a melody, you can “feel” the right and wrong chords that go along with it. That's only scratching the surface and will not get you playing jazz. Listening to and copying the greats - Bird, Monk, Evans, Coltrane, Ro…

Remember, different capacities. The author might be super talented compared to you. He might find easy what you call difficult, or his definition of easy is different to ours. Might~

The author has had some piano lessons and later observed his kids' piano lessons. He certainly doesn't appear or claim to be a teacher or accomplished player.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#158
post #68

Have to chime-in here as a piano player since age 7 (so been going for ~28 now), who about 2 years ago got very serious about Jazz. I have stumbled across this book many times, I have read it. It's the single most controversial book that I've read about piano technique and playing that I've found. The author, is not even a player himself (!!!). There's a great summary of reviews about the book here ( https://www.pian…

Can I ask you what your path into jazz has been like? I've been playing myself for like 25 years, classically trained for my whole childhood. I've always enjoyed improvisation and love jazz piano so much, but I've found it really hard to build from my very limited improv vocabulary into "serious" jazz, and I've had a hard time learning how to learn jazz, if that makes sense.

Joining an online community like Learn Jazz Standards really helps. You can work through exercises and lessons at your own pace, plus you have others who can give you constructive feedback. I’m a guitar player and joining a similar site, Fret Dojo, has pushed me way beyond where I would have gotten on my own.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#159

Does this book cover how to figure out finger numbering for sheet music that doesn't have finger numbering? By finger numbering I mean the standard scheme where thumb=1, index=2, ..., pinky=5, and the notes on the sheet music have these numbers. This is the biggest mystery to me. I understand there is not a One True Canonical Fingering for a given sequence of notes. But some fingerings make the music much easier than…

> I understand there is not a One True Canonical Fingering for a given sequence of notes.

True. For any given passage, there are at least two different One True Canonical Fingerings, and no matter what you do you will be Wrong and criticized without mercy for your ridiculous incompetence.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#160
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the deal with learning basic notation being made to be so difficult? It's by far one of the easiest parts of learning to play an instrument. >It is NOT intuitive and you won't benefit from it immediately. What? How do you hope to play anything other than basic melodies if you can't read music? You'd have to develop your ear, which is much harder than learning to read music x) > Especially as piano has differen…

Primarily, it's about payoff / benefit. Imagine you're 40 years old and you've never played an instrument. You have limited ambition - you want to have fun and play a little bit around campfire. How do you start, let's say on a guitar: 1. I show you G, C, D chords and print out a simple, easily understandable chart you can take home. You now can play hundreds of songs after 30 min lesson and a few mins of practice. Y…

> Second point, I firmly believe, especially for Hacker-News audience, is that learning staff notation too early is counter-productive.

I'd like to add that in 2021 learning writing and reading is counter-productive. Text-to speech and vice versa software is widely available, and spelling rules for English require a ridiculous effort for little benefit except backwards compatibility with legacy books. As an adult learner you are SCREEEEWED even trying to figure out how to pronounce the things written above.

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