Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#151

Post by jollybean » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 6:03 AM UTC

HeavenFox wrote: post #48

refurb wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did Israel gets enough vaccine by April then? Canada had barely started receiving doses then? I see an awful lot of whitewashing to cover mistakes going on.

a) Canada has 4x the population of Israel b) Israel agreed to the extraordinary term of sharing their data with Pfizer, in exchange for getting doses early, something Canada almost surely won't be willing to do c) The Israeli PM Netanyahu was facing significant electoral challenges and desperately needed a win, so there was a lot of political will

Israel was paying something like $65/dose, which is way, way ahead of what other nations were going to pay.

Bibi's career at this point was up against a wall, and he was willing to do anything to 'be first'. Israel has a cagey foreign policy apparatus, I have no doubt they went 'all in' on this, calling in favours, applying pressure in addition to the regular negotiations.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#152

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 6:05 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #132

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> someone off the rails agreeing with a large group on one issue doesn't mean the whole group is off the rails. No, it means that the "nazi fuckwits" and "off the rails people" are _recruiting_ and doing so where the audience is worked up and receptive to their radicalisation.

What should we expect when we are pushing any disagreement whatsoever out of the mainstream? I was vaccinated the day I was able to be, but if I started browbeating everyone else around me who was slower, they'd just cut off contact and start associating with people who weren't total jerks to them. If the only ones who are listening to the disagreeing moderates are radicals, we should expect an increase in radicaliza…

Are you saying that it's the fault of the groups not directly present, we can blame the moderates who aren't there?

You'll either eject the cranks or become them. The (possibly apocryphal) tale is "As we say in Germany, if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis."

This dynamic has happened many many times on the left, with the far left cranks.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#153

Post by jollybean » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 6:06 AM UTC

mthoms wrote: post #114

newsclues wrote: post #89

Canadian government funded media outlet defends the government’s actions. There was a reason people complained about the government’s funding of media.

Sigh. This article is based on scientific evidence. Please leave your politics out of it. Anyways, the vast majority seem perfectly happy with the CBC. Fewer than 1 in 5 Canadians want CBC funding decreased: poll https://ipolitics.ca/2019/05/13/nearly-80-of-canadians-want-...

Sigh. The CBC is well known to support this government, and that reporting is biased, that's not 'political' it's just reality.

While that part of the strategy 'panned out', the government was ineffective in securing vaccines despite early 'deals', all the while the CBC was not particularly hostile to this fact.

That fewer that 1 in 5 Canadians want CBC funding decreased is a populist issue.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#154

Post by salamandersauce » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 10:13 AM UTC

rubyist5eva wrote: post #108

switch007 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hear hear. I knew someone would call out Canada's totalitarianism and get down-voted for it. The criticism in response to the article is not out of place. The article gushes about how wonderful a job the vaccine has done. Well, it hasn't done a wonderful job for freedom or rights has it?

In my province in particular, mandatory vaccines were implemented in a small subset of regulated industries - but then the rest of the private sector moved in lockstep to require proof of vaccination for service and employment. For my demographic, the moderna vaccine is no longer recommended - we are told to get Pfizer instead even though the vaccines are basically the same (including the risks moderna is being advis…

There's nothing invasive about a vaccine. There's many definitions of invasive medical procedure but it has more to do with what level of cutting you open counts. Not a 30 second jab in the arm that leaves no permanent damage. You've probably had a dozen of these "invasive" procedures as a kid and completely forgotten about them.

I don't believe you should have the freedom to spread around an infectious disease that has already crippled the health care system in many provinces and killed thousands of people. Your rights end where others begin. Your free to not give your vaccine status (vaccinated or unvaccinated) as well but you just have to live with the consequences of not attending restaurants and hockey games.

It's people like you dragging this whole thing on.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#155

Post by switch007 » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 12:41 PM UTC

salamandersauce wrote: post #154

rubyist5eva wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my province in particular, mandatory vaccines were implemented in a small subset of regulated industries - but then the rest of the private sector moved in lockstep to require proof of vaccination for service and employment. For my demographic, the moderna vaccine is no longer recommended - we are told to get Pfizer instead even though the vaccines are basically the same (including the risks moderna is being advis…

There's nothing invasive about a vaccine. There's many definitions of invasive medical procedure but it has more to do with what level of cutting you open counts. Not a 30 second jab in the arm that leaves no permanent damage. You've probably had a dozen of these "invasive" procedures as a kid and completely forgotten about them. I don't believe you should have the freedom to spread around an infectious disease that…

I'm just wondering how you've played _your_ part in not burdening the health system during your life?

Of course infectious diseases aren't the only way to burden a health system

Obviously, I presume you don't smoke and never have smoked.

Never drunk alcohol.

Nor are overweight and never been overweight.

And done everything in your power to reduce risk of cancer, stroke, heart attack, etc.

And you never leave your house because it's very risky being outside and you might break a leg.

And inside your house, you never use boiling water or stoves, in case you burn yourself.

And when you have colds/flu, you isolate yourself for 10 days. You never think about heading to the shops for food or medicine, in case you make someone else sick.

Children are big spreaders of disease, so if you have children, I presume you home-school them?

And you don't drive an ICE car and never have, because of all the pollution and the health problems and deaths that causes.

> I don't believe you should have the freedom to spread around an infectious disease

See, what you're saying is: I don't believe you should have freedom.

Were all the low paid workers in factories, forced to work else starve/be made homeless, exercising "freedom to spread around an infectious disease", or where they trying to live?

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#156

Post by BigJono » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #113

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, perhaps they need to move up your list now. The "anti-lockdown protests" have consistently attracted some very unpleasant kooks, cranks and opportunists, from the "5g mind control" lot to the "international banker conspiracy" lot. It's omni-nutty. Piers Corbyn is a regular at the UK ones. In the US, I am sure that all roads lead to QAnon and their anti-Semitic totalising conspiracy theory. The intensity and nat…

I'm sure all those "kooks, cranks and opportunists" had breakfast, too. Should we start calling French toast a conspiracy? Last year when people (in the US) were protesting, violent protests were called "mostly peaceful" because it was claimed that there was a peaceful majority and an opportunistic minority. Why be so eager to do the opposite now and taint the majority with the odd few? In other words, someone off th…

This is specifically why, in the case of these exact protests, the police gave the crowd ample opportunity to leave the area without being arrested, around 5pm, after allowing them to protest peacefully the entire day.

Half the crowd left, then the remaining crowd pumped themselves up and attacked the police after being peaceful the entire day.

Seems to me like the reasonable ones left and the remainders were assholes. The extremists were the ones being shot with rubber bullets. Anyone that wasn't an extremist and still got shot is an idiot, they had every opportunity to voice their opinion peacefully.

But all I hear from the fucking yanks on HN is them projecting their own politics onto what's happening over here. There's so much misinformation in threads like these and everyone laps it up like idiots. Like I said before, I watched the entire day live on my second monitor, from livestreams run by the protestors themselves. I got their viewpoint, which shows clearly what happened. Whereas the people trying to argue against policy brutality here are doing so with Fox News rhetoric, not with facts.

We need more eyes on the police, at all times. But we need that scrutiny to come with facts. I have no love for Victoria Police, but I'm sick of them and our liberal (small L) government being the focal point of a debate half way across the world that completely misses the mark. HN seems like it skews left on privacy and surveillance issues, but because of it's American focus, the people here just spew dangerous rhetoric that risks cutting the head off the lesser evil, when we have an ultra conservative federal government pushing the most authoritarian tech surveillance laws in the western world. They're on opposite sides here. As long as there's no realistic chance of getting the average person to vote for a third party, if it's all the same, I'd prefer if you all stop letting an American media invasion turn us into the 4th fucking reich.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#157

Post by mthoms » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC

jollybean wrote: post #153

mthoms wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh. This article is based on scientific evidence. Please leave your politics out of it. Anyways, the vast majority seem perfectly happy with the CBC. Fewer than 1 in 5 Canadians want CBC funding decreased: poll https://ipolitics.ca/2019/05/13/nearly-80-of-canadians-want-...

Sigh. The CBC is well known to support this government, and that reporting is biased, that's not 'political' it's just reality. While that part of the strategy 'panned out', the government was ineffective in securing vaccines despite early 'deals', all the while the CBC was not particularly hostile to this fact. That fewer that 1 in 5 Canadians want CBC funding decreased is a populist issue.

It’s an article about scientific papers. It reports what they reported: The strategy worked out. Bringing up the politics of the CBC in this context is an irrelevant distraction. Claiming the article is intentionally misleading is outright lying. Note: the poster edited their post after I posted mine. It originally contained a claim that most Canadians want the CBC abolished (or something to that effect). The wording of the other claim (that the article is misleading because the CBC is biased was also toned down) Hence the “sigh”. I’m tired of people who are clearing arguing in bad faith. That proved itself in this case.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#158

Post by mthoms » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

johnisgood wrote: post #149

querulous wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this isn't true at all. only canadians who received az as one of their doses (less than 10% of the population) are not recognized as vaccinated in the usa

Eh, I think his point stands. Similarly to the story I told in my other comment: 1. Hey, you need the vaccine to go in there to visit your relative! 2. OK. Woman walks to the other part of the hospital to get vaccinated. 3. Woman returns 10 minutes later and is able to visit the relative. Why? I thought the vaccine takes time to work. Plus, I thought asymptomatic people have a next to none chance of transmitting, vac…

What you’re describing is a loophole - an oversight. Not a grand political conspiracy.

I’m not sure the asymptotic part is correct or not but consider that people can lie about not having symptoms.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#159

Post by johnisgood » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

mthoms wrote: post #158

johnisgood wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I think his point stands. Similarly to the story I told in my other comment: 1. Hey, you need the vaccine to go in there to visit your relative! 2. OK. Woman walks to the other part of the hospital to get vaccinated. 3. Woman returns 10 minutes later and is able to visit the relative. Why? I thought the vaccine takes time to work. Plus, I thought asymptomatic people have a next to none chance of transmitting, vac…

What you’re describing is a loophole - an oversight. Not a grand political conspiracy. I’m not sure the asymptotic part is correct or not but consider that people can lie about not having symptoms.

I am not saying it is a conspiracy, I am saying it is dumb, a dumb oversight, yes, which makes it less about health & safety, so much less that it is not, really.

We do body temperature checks.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#160

Post by mthoms » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

switch007 wrote: post #155

salamandersauce wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing invasive about a vaccine. There's many definitions of invasive medical procedure but it has more to do with what level of cutting you open counts. Not a 30 second jab in the arm that leaves no permanent damage. You've probably had a dozen of these "invasive" procedures as a kid and completely forgotten about them. I don't believe you should have the freedom to spread around an infectious disease that…

I'm just wondering how you've played _your_ part in not burdening the health system during your life? Of course infectious diseases aren't the only way to burden a health system Obviously, I presume you don't smoke and never have smoked. Never drunk alcohol. Nor are overweight and never been overweight. And done everything in your power to reduce risk of cancer, stroke, heart attack, etc. And you never leave your hou…

You changed the threshold from "overwhelming the healthcare system" to "using the healthcare system". and think you're being clever. That won't work here.

>See, what you're saying is: I don't believe you should have freedom.

Save the drama, special snowflake. What we're saying, very clearly is "do your part to save lives".

If you're too selfish to do that, the rest of us don't want to be around you. Not because we think you're jerks (we do), but because you might kill us. Is that unreasonable? Honestly?

Your rights end when they threaten the safety of others. It's been that way since the concept of "rights" came into existence. This isn't a new concept. It's a basic tenet of a working democratic society. It always has been.