Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year • Hacker News Board

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#151

Post by LadyCailin » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 11:45 PM UTC

plantain wrote: post #139

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Colorado at least it's not that high. $50 plus a small amount (today) that goes up over time to no more than $96 in the 2031-2032 fiscal year. It's CERTAINLY a lot less than you'd be paying in gas tax if you used your car an average amount. Taxes aren't punishment, anyway. Especially "road use taxes", which are, in this case, used to repair the roads you're driving on. [1] https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/11486

Taxes are a form of punishment, they're a tool to discourage certain behaviours relative to others. Whether roads are funded by road taxes or primary school fees doesn't matter - if we want to promote a behaviour we subsidize it; if we want to discourage it, we tax it. Whether and how the books balance in the background isn't relevant.

Oh my god, no they aren’t. Taxes are a tool for society to function. They can be used to discourage things, sure, but they are not a punishment in most cases. Do you consider paying for your meal at a restaurant a punishment? Give me a break.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#152

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 11:50 PM UTC

njovin wrote: post #97

ostenning wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile in Australia: electric cars are getting taxed more to support the aging oil infrastructure

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

> One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes.

It does, in social impact sense (gas taxes in the US are universally way too low to cover the impacts).

OTOH, diffuse social benefit doesn't pay for road maintenance, and states have legal and practical requirements for short-run operating budget balance. The right solution would probably be increase general taxation, in a way that misses the low end (e.g., bump income taxes, but not the lowest brackets), to cover the costs.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#153

Post by fspeech » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 11:50 PM UTC

plantain wrote: post #139

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Colorado at least it's not that high. $50 plus a small amount (today) that goes up over time to no more than $96 in the 2031-2032 fiscal year. It's CERTAINLY a lot less than you'd be paying in gas tax if you used your car an average amount. Taxes aren't punishment, anyway. Especially "road use taxes", which are, in this case, used to repair the roads you're driving on. [1] https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/11486

Taxes are a form of punishment, they're a tool to discourage certain behaviours relative to others. Whether roads are funded by road taxes or primary school fees doesn't matter - if we want to promote a behaviour we subsidize it; if we want to discourage it, we tax it. Whether and how the books balance in the background isn't relevant.

I don't think income tax is there to punish you for having income: even with the tax higher pre-tax income results in higher after-tax income. But even if road usage linked fees were a punishment, it is against car ownership in general, which seems fair to me. The relative incentive of electric over gas is still there.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#154

Post by blackoil » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 11:50 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #111

r00fus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway has a sovereign wealth fund (valuation: 1.4T in USD) that is setup specifically for this eventuality. Many large oil exporting countries know the good times won't last, and are planning for it.

> Norway has a sovereign wealth fund (valuation: 1.4T in USD) that is setup specifically for this eventuality. That's not much - $25K per person over 10 years, and with an average income of $70K per person, and something like half of their economy is energy (most if not all social programs are funded from energy production). If oil were to stop tomorrow, they'd have around 10 years before the money runs out. (Maybe a…

A comment above says that only 14% of GDP is oil dependent. That does look apocalyptic even if by magic oil demand drops to 0 tomorrow.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#155

Post by fakedang » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 11:52 PM UTC

LadyCailin wrote: post #151

plantain wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are a form of punishment, they're a tool to discourage certain behaviours relative to others. Whether roads are funded by road taxes or primary school fees doesn't matter - if we want to promote a behaviour we subsidize it; if we want to discourage it, we tax it. Whether and how the books balance in the background isn't relevant.

Oh my god, no they aren’t. Taxes are a tool for society to function. They can be used to discourage things, sure, but they are not a punishment in most cases. Do you consider paying for your meal at a restaurant a punishment? Give me a break.

A tax on electric vehicles isn't necessary for society to function. It's just a medium for adding money to what is already more graft. So yes, it is effectively a tool to direct certain behaviors. As are all VAT and luxury taxes.

Income taxes are the major part of the income that society needs to function. The rest of the lot are just punitive ones, like estate and wealth taxes.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#156

Post by jacobolus » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #152

njovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

> One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. It does, in social impact sense (gas taxes in the US are universally way too low to cover the impacts). OTOH, diffuse social benefit doesn't pay for road maintenance, and states have legal and practical requirements for short-run op…

The ideal would be to dramatically tax petroleum products (at least covering the massive environmental and social costs of air pollution and global climate change from their use), also tax cars (and especially large trucks) in general to fund road maintenance, and (a) distribute the proceeds from petroleum taxes uniformly to every resident, while also (b) better funding public transit, building bicycle/pedestrian infrastructure, etc. This would encourage people to move away from environmentally unsustainable modes of transportation while not unduly harming the poorest.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#157

Post by kosievdmerwe » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 12:01 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #152

njovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

> One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. It does, in social impact sense (gas taxes in the US are universally way too low to cover the impacts). OTOH, diffuse social benefit doesn't pay for road maintenance, and states have legal and practical requirements for short-run op…

It's like paying artists in "exposure". There's value, but it doesn't actually pay the bills.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#158

Post by grecy » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 12:06 AM UTC

ostenning wrote: post #83

thomasfl wrote: post #14

There's a huge price difference between electric cars and gas fueled cars here in Norway. Gas fueled car buyers have to pay both 25 percent VAT and an additional tax on purchase. Buyers don't have to pay neither of those taxes if they buy an electric car. The singer of the group A-ha, Morten Harket, bought an electrical car in 1989 and refused to pay road tolls and ignored all the subsequent fines. That got a lot of…

Meanwhile in Australia: electric cars are getting taxed more to support the aging oil infrastructure

The Aussie politicians have made it very clear who is lining their pockets.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#159

Post by feifan » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 12:22 AM UTC

no_butterscotch wrote: post #123

njovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

Wow really? I have a Tesla in CA and am only familiar with the electric vehicle credit (not sure what it is, I haven't looked into it) and the "you get to use carpool lanes" rule for EVs. Otherwise, I'm not familiar with extra taxes :(

IIRC, renewing a Tesla registration is $6xx/year whereas renewing a gas car's registration is $1xx/year

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#160

Post by dougmwne » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 12:23 AM UTC

plantain wrote: post #139

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Colorado at least it's not that high. $50 plus a small amount (today) that goes up over time to no more than $96 in the 2031-2032 fiscal year. It's CERTAINLY a lot less than you'd be paying in gas tax if you used your car an average amount. Taxes aren't punishment, anyway. Especially "road use taxes", which are, in this case, used to repair the roads you're driving on. [1] https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/11486

Taxes are a form of punishment, they're a tool to discourage certain behaviours relative to others. Whether roads are funded by road taxes or primary school fees doesn't matter - if we want to promote a behaviour we subsidize it; if we want to discourage it, we tax it. Whether and how the books balance in the background isn't relevant.

Punishment is really incorrect. Taxes are a form of incentive. It is a behavioral nudge, not a flogging.