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Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

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Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#151

Post by [deleted] »

nostromo wrote: post #101
michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

My takeaway is the opposite: I'm pleasantly surprised with how many people are vaccinated, and how quickly. It's hard to get 2/3rds of Americans to agree on just about anything. When you look at the hold-outs, it's largely young people who are at very low risk of serious illness. (85% of 65 and older are vaccinated, but just 57% of people 18-29.) So it makes sense to me that they are more hesitant.

[deleted]

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#152

Post by betterunix2 »

gregwebs wrote: post #129
betterunix2 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not how vaccines or diseases work. Vaccines are never 100% effective at preventing infections or at preventing people from having to go to the ER. One vaccinated person surrounded by unvaccinated people will eventually contract the virus. A large unvaccinated population also breeds new variants, eventually resulting in vaccine-resistant variants that put those who are vaccinated in danger. The fact is that a…

Your statement is reasonable for sterilizing vaccines, and maybe even for this vaccine before the Delta variant. However, this vaccine is non-sterilizing, meaning that it does not stop people from getting infected in the nose but stops progression to the lower respiratory tract thus preventing hospitalization. Before the delta variant the vaccines also worked surprisingly well at reducing infections, but with the Del…

Citation needed? A quick search turns up study after study from one country after another finding that COVID vaccines both reduce the rate of infection and reduce the rate of transmission even with the delta variant.

You are right that people are overstating what the vaccine does, and that is where politicians actually have a chance to do something useful. Unfortunately there is a major political party that is doing the opposite, spreading false information, and shouting about "freedom" while working to stop local leaders from taking action...

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#153

Post by quotemstr »

ZetaZero wrote: post #43
woodpanel wrote: post #15

Regardless of where you stand with this policy, you gotta give it some Kudos: It's a very efficient way to cleanse your entire bureaucracy of doubters. I can't think of another example where a democratic republic, which by definition includes a spectrum of opinions, has its whole bureaucratic hierarchy re-aligned with the ruling party's platform. Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic?

Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic? SCOTUS ruled that mandatory vaccines are constitutional back in 1905. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

The rationale in that case doesn't apply here: the COVID vaccines don't stop the spread of the virus. Because COVID vaccines can't actually stop the spread of the disease under any plausible level of vaccination (the R0 of the virus is too high), vaccines can serve only to safeguard the health of individuals, and we generally don't use heavy-handed nation-wide mandates to force people to do things that are merely good for them health-wise on an individual basis.

The same reasoning that justifies this mandate would justify a state-imposed limit on daily calorie consumption, a state-imposed exercise requirement, and all sorts of other coercive measures that, while good for people's health, are flagrant violations of principles of bodily autonomy and informed consent for medical treatment.

This isn't about the vaccine and it's not even about COVID. This is about one political tribe using the state to hurt the other political tribe.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#154

Post by AnimalMuppet »

stevenpetryk wrote: post #7
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine that, too. Or hope that. Expect that, even. But I would feel better if they actually said that. (Too much nonsense around Covid has made me a cynic...)

Just FYI, a cynic is someone who assumes people are selfish. A lot of people confuse it for pessimist.

But "pessimist" is more characters to type...

And, cynically, I see an amazing amount of selfishness around Covid.

One side won't wear masks because it impinges their freedom, and they'd rather have their freedom than not have vulnerable people die.

The other side wants to get everyone to do what they're supposed to do so that they (the ones demanding that others do what they should) can get back to living like they want, and never mind if they run over others' freedom or limitations on governmental authority or whatever. (Yes, I know, the second group is also concerned about the vulnerable. But it seems to me that at least some of the outrage comes from "Things should go the way I want them to, and it's unacceptable that the actions of others take that away from me.")

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#155

Post by angelzen »

cbdumas wrote: post #104
twstdsistrs84 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. Ok, but the covid vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission -- which really takes the wind out of the "do it for the good of the community" sail. Additionally, viral concentrations via min PCR cycle threshold has been found to be roughly equal between vaccinated and unvaccinated. And finally, these mandates completely ignore natural immunit…

> covid vaccines do not prevent infection This is untrue, see this site and the studies in the footnotes: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-var... TL;DR: Vaccines are effective, though not perfect, at preventing infection with the delta variant

> 10. Riemersma KA, Grogan BE, Kirta-Yarbo A, et al. Vaccinated and Unvaccinated Individuals Have Similar Viral Loads in Communities with a High Prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant. medRxiv. 2021 Jul 31; https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387external

Not particularly supportive of the thesis your are arguing for. Perhaps you could narrow down a bit the range of papers that support 'vaccines prevent infection / transmission' thesis?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#156

Post by pwinnski »

cbdumas wrote: post #104
twstdsistrs84 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. Ok, but the covid vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission -- which really takes the wind out of the "do it for the good of the community" sail. Additionally, viral concentrations via min PCR cycle threshold has been found to be roughly equal between vaccinated and unvaccinated. And finally, these mandates completely ignore natural immunit…

> covid vaccines do not prevent infection This is untrue, see this site and the studies in the footnotes: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-var... TL;DR: Vaccines are effective, though not perfect, at preventing infection with the delta variant

TL;DR: You are correct!

The counter-story seems to be based on radically misreading data out of Israel, which seems to show higher infection rates among the vaccinated, a reading which fails to take into account the incredibly high rate of vaccination there.

So yeah, there are more infections among the 78% vaccinated than among the 22% unvaccinated. Given that there are 3.5x as many people in the first group, that's not entirely unexpected. As a percentage of the population, the vaccinated are still less likely to get infected, and less likely to deal with severe consequences.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#157

Post by betterunix2 »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #88
betterunix2 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination is not a political position. Vaccines only work if a large majority of people are vaccinated and people who refuse to receive the shot are putting everyone else in danger. A basic function of a government is to protect public safety, and that is what a vaccine mandate does.

Clearly it has become a political position. A progressive way of thinking about this move is to depoliticize it by making it the enforced norm because it's a stupid thing to politicize. A cynical view is that it'll force non conformers out. But its hardly novel to make government employees do politically slanted things. I'm sure a lot of government employees on the democrat or neutral side felt strong opposition to d…

COVID vaccination may have become a political position, but vaccination in general is not. Where are all the debates about MMR, hep-B, polio, etc.? We have required vaccinations in our children beginning in infancy for generations, and I am not hearing any governors or representatives saying that we must end the practice.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#158

Post by peteradio »

thatswrong0 wrote: post #144
donutdan4114 wrote: post #127

Gosh, disturbing comment section for disturbing times. When experimental medical treatments become mandatory for illnesses that have a 99%+ survival rate, and there is absolutely NO LONG TERM safety data, some red flags should be raised. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jktvh6k0qys

What about the long term safety data on catching / surviving COVID itself? Long COVID seems to affect between 10-30% of people who catch COVID. Why do I never hear anti-vaxxers being concerned about that?

Because its mostly undefined what long-covid even means. In the worst cases it means organ damage, but Ill bet you anything those are not anywhere near 10-30% of cases. More likely people randomly feel like shit for a while sometimes, like every other year in my adult life.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#159

Post by enragedcacti »

sk2020 wrote: post #135
betterunix2 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_infection#By_dise... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity Do not think in terms of "your vaccine," because vaccines are about preventing the spread of a disease within a population.

That’s interesting. Every other vaccine, like Hep A, Hep B, MMR, TDAP, and flu I’ve taken was to protect myself, or so I thought. But if someone with an account on Wikipedia wrote something, well, I guess that would change everything. I guess we’re lucky to have people who care so deeply and personally about hospital bed utilization rates that they will inflict as much punishment as necessary to meet those goals.

FYI wikipedia requires references to a reputable source. Feel free to read some of the 100 references for herd immunity here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity#References

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#160

Post by leereeves »

titzer wrote: post #122
nostromo wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My takeaway is the opposite: I'm pleasantly surprised with how many people are vaccinated, and how quickly. It's hard to get 2/3rds of Americans to agree on just about anything. When you look at the hold-outs, it's largely young people who are at very low risk of serious illness. (85% of 65 and older are vaccinated, but just 57% of people 18-29.) So it makes sense to me that they are more hesitant.

I have extended family--aunts, uncles, cousins--who all decided not to get vaccinated. There are young people who can't be bothered to do a damn thing, but hesitancy among a particular political persuasion is rampant.

People of that "particular political persuasion" have lost trust in most institutions. Unfortunately they're discarding some good things (like the vaccine) along with the bad.
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