How The Hell Is This My Fault? • Hacker News Board

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#151

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 1:32 PM UTC

ulisesroche wrote: post #149

jacquesm wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't the Airbnb guys have already given her contact info to PG if they had wanted to? Maybe. > What made you decide to do so and did you ask her for permission to pass on her details to a third party? I think that PG is a very smart guy and I have some personal reasons to believe that PG has his heart very much in the right place when it comes to things that are this personal. I can not go in to details there,…

Jacques, listen: Airbnb already called the grownups, and he made an even bigger mess. You're telling us to calm down, to not be so brash, but you should have asked for her permission.

> Jacques, listen: Airbnb already called the grownups, and he made an even bigger mess.

I figure PG not talking to all parties is what caused the bigger mess.

> You're telling us to calm down, to not be so brash, but you should have asked for her permission.

I don't like witch hunts.

AirBNB has obviously done a lot of things wrong here but I think they can still recover from this if it gets handled 100% good from now on forward.

I agree, I should have asked for her permission, it never crossed my mind because I feel that it was the right thing to do, and because since PG is an investor he might as well have that information, it's not like he is an outsider to this whole affair, but he is uniquely positioned to see both sides of the story.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#152

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 1:34 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #148

class_vs_object wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've passed her contact info to PG This is the creepiest thing I've ever heard. She's had her personal space and privacy violated in a terrible way, and you're passing around her contact details? Did you ask her permission?

> She's had per personal space and privacy violated in a terrible way, and you're passing around her contact details? I passed her contact information to the one guy that I think can keep his head cool enough to solve this in a way that is beneficial to her. You may disagree with that but that's fine with me. > She mentioned in both blog posts that she is trying to keep her personal details private. Yes, and I helped…

[deleted]

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#153

Post by dollarsigns » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 1:37 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #119

jcunningham wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok but doesn't Airbnb have much bigger fish behind them now that could help with this? (Ashton Kutcher, Andreeson, DST, General Catalyst) I would be surprised if these companies have not offered the support of their PR teams to help Airbnb dig themselves out of this hole.

Possibly. PG to me is the 'father' of all these start-ups, and as I wrote I have personal reasons to believe that he is exactly the right guy for this. What is needed most at this moment in time is someone with a capacity for empathy and some adult supervision. PR can come afterwards, my own view of PR is that is mostly about putting something bad in as favorable light as possible, right now there are two parties tha…

jacquesm, you sound like a reasonable man.

Consider that:

- the basis of your very questionable action [1] is precisely the type of taking-shortcuts-due-to-x-factor reasoning that this event is all about.

- the 'perceived cost' of your asking EJ "May I forward your contact info to a man who I fully trust and believe well positioned to address this to all parties' satisfaction?" was apparently deemed [2] to be excessive in the same way the simple prominent and bold statement "AirBnB takes NO responsibilities for actions of either providers or renters".

[1]: forwarding identity to PG.

[2]: you seem like a very smart guy. this can not have been an omission.

[edit: fix notes]

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#154

Post by jellicle » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 1:38 PM UTC

Sounds to me like Paul Graham has made a fairly fundamental and common mistake, which is to say believing the AirBnb people when they reassure him that everything is under control and there's no fire here.

Paul, if you actually read the statements made by the CEO on news.ycombinator.com, it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here.

I don't want to call Paul a liar, since it seems likely to me that he has just made a mistake of believing someone else. But he's putting his own reputation behind AirBnb, and AirBnb is lying. That's unwise.

Let me compare a different response that I'm familiar with. A friend of mine had her apartment destroyed in the 9/11/2001 terrorist attacks. Insurance companies came and set up booths in Manhattan and were cutting checks left and right, without even SEEING the damage. My friend had a check in her hand on 9/13 if I recall correctly. She didn't get in to SEE her own apartment until a month later, and the insurance company didn't see it until much later than that.

As of today and yesterday, there are articles in newspapers across the land. There are phrases like "As of Friday afternoon, Airbnb had not returned calls from The [Washington] Post requesting comment." - that's a quote from a WashPost story, of course. One thing I know: when the Washington Post calls and a company has something good to say about themselves, they take the call (calls, actually).

It's apparent from the latest newspaper stories that AirBnb is now reacting in a cover-it-up fashion - they're trying to offer the woman a sum of money with the condition that she shut up. That's fine, I guess - very corporate of them.

But frankly I expected better. I guess I sort of expected that even if AirBnb was being dumb, that when the first article hit news.yc, that someone would call them and straighten them out. Instead it seems that PG, also, is blinded by "going to be as big as Ebay".

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#155

Post by spidertoday » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 1:38 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #91

Everybody calm down please. EJ is real, she's a real person, it really did happen, just in case anybody was still wondering about that. I've passed her contact info to PG and him being the smart man that he is I'm pretty sure that he can come up with a solution that will satisfy everybody and will allow the victim to move on and get AirBNB past this crisis. Any words to the effect that AirBNB is 'setting precedent' a…

> I've passed her contact info to PG and him being the smart man that he is I'm pretty sure that he can come up with a solution that will satisfy everybody and will allow the victim to move on and get AirBNB past this crisis.

Did you do it with her permission?

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#156

Post by spidertoday » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 1:40 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #148

class_vs_object wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've passed her contact info to PG This is the creepiest thing I've ever heard. She's had her personal space and privacy violated in a terrible way, and you're passing around her contact details? Did you ask her permission?

> She's had per personal space and privacy violated in a terrible way, and you're passing around her contact details? I passed her contact information to the one guy that I think can keep his head cool enough to solve this in a way that is beneficial to her. You may disagree with that but that's fine with me. > She mentioned in both blog posts that she is trying to keep her personal details private. Yes, and I helped…

> I passed her contact information to the one guy that I think can keep his head cool enough to solve this in a way that is beneficial to her. You may disagree with that but that's fine with me.

PG has a vested interest here -- he's an investor, not a neutral party.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#157

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 1:43 PM UTC

dollarsigns wrote: post #153

jacquesm wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly. PG to me is the 'father' of all these start-ups, and as I wrote I have personal reasons to believe that he is exactly the right guy for this. What is needed most at this moment in time is someone with a capacity for empathy and some adult supervision. PR can come afterwards, my own view of PR is that is mostly about putting something bad in as favorable light as possible, right now there are two parties tha…

jacquesm, you sound like a reasonable man. Consider that: - the basis of your very questionable action [1] is precisely the type of taking-shortcuts-due-to-x-factor reasoning that this event is all about. - the 'perceived cost' of your asking EJ "May I forward your contact info to a man who I fully trust and believe well positioned to address this to all parties' satisfaction?" was apparently deemed [2] to be excessi…

It's simple, I would have probably done that had I thought it through, but the thought that she would object never crossed my mind, my bad.

> : forwarding identity to PG. : you seem like a very smart guy. this can not have been an omission.

All I passed was her email address and her first name, both of which were very easily found*, and I told her exactly how those were obtained.

If you think that I did that purposefully bypassing her permission then I can simply respond with saying that that is not the case, you can believe whatever you wish.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#158

Post by dollarsigns » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 1:47 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #157

dollarsigns wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

jacquesm, you sound like a reasonable man. Consider that: - the basis of your very questionable action [1] is precisely the type of taking-shortcuts-due-to-x-factor reasoning that this event is all about. - the 'perceived cost' of your asking EJ "May I forward your contact info to a man who I fully trust and believe well positioned to address this to all parties' satisfaction?" was apparently deemed [2] to be excessi…

It's simple, I would have probably done that had I thought it through, but the thought that she would object never crossed my mind, my bad. > : forwarding identity to PG. : you seem like a very smart guy. this can not have been an omission. All I passed was her email address and her first name, both of which were very easily found*, and I told her exactly how those were obtained. If you think that I did that purposef…

Thank you for your explanation.

> the thought that she would object never crossed my mind, my bad.

I believe you!

And here then is the point for all geeks present: Clearly even smart, informed, people make mistakes. The notion of 'buyer beware' is the ethics of hucksters, not Hackers.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#159

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 1:48 PM UTC

spidertoday wrote: post #156

jacquesm wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She's had per personal space and privacy violated in a terrible way, and you're passing around her contact details? I passed her contact information to the one guy that I think can keep his head cool enough to solve this in a way that is beneficial to her. You may disagree with that but that's fine with me. > She mentioned in both blog posts that she is trying to keep her personal details private. Yes, and I helped…

> I passed her contact information to the one guy that I think can keep his head cool enough to solve this in a way that is beneficial to her. You may disagree with that but that's fine with me. PG has a vested interest here -- he's an investor, not a neutral party.

I trust PG to be able to overcome his bias and do the right thing here and have every reason to believe that he can and possibly will. Yes, he's an investor, he's also a human being.

Hearing both sides of the story is crucial in that, as long as he's hearing just one side he probably should not be commenting on this.

The alternative is that he will let AirBNB solve this by themselves, based on the data available so far I think that will not work out well.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#160

Post by babebridou » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 1:48 PM UTC

cageface wrote: post #137

babebridou wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give it time, and people will get out in the streets again (terrorist attacks), people will eat meat again (mad cow disease), people will buy cucumber again (killing cucumber), strangers will shake hands again (H1N1 influenza), hell, people will even go visit Chernobyl as tourists. It's not a "real" issue, it's more of a temporary difficulty. AirBnB's business exists since the dawn of time. A setback, if you prefer.

The naive level of trust on which they've built their business is gone. I think they can survive this but not without some significant structural changes.

To think a business can only survive if the savvy feel at ease is itself naive, though. Most people in the world are deliciously ignorant about the dangers of any activity. People still take hitchhikers for a ride, still cross the road without looking, still share their public details on Facebook for everyone to see, and still use Bed and Breakfast services, still get on one night stands with complete strangers.

Change is often a good thing, but I don't think they should make hasty "significant structural change" because it's clearly not what's needed right now. Subtle evolution is much better to improve trust.