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Why is it so hard to be rational?

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Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#151
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it depends on the topic. Choosing rationally between the most green of two tomatoes is easy. You are limited by your ability to distinguish colors but you can still decide rationally. Not all questions have answers, if you want to be rational when you are asked to answer those question, you can just say "I dont know" At the beginning of the pandemic, when politics were saying mask dont work. You could just say,…

> You could just say, well, if we transmit covid by air, then putting something in front of my mouth is going to decrease the spread. That's what is being rational. If I squint at a statement like this, I guess it could be called rational, but it is certainly not rigorous or convincing. You brush over too much and are making lots of assumptions. Are these statements rational? The sun is warm, so if I climb a ladder I…

> "You should wear masks because rigorous science tells us that it is effective."

you've really just glossed over the hard part, which is when and where masks work, which is in turn the difficult political problem to solve.

simplifying, covid spreads mouth-to-mouth with a brief stint in the air, not mouth-to-air-then-(much)-later-to-mouth, which is the mediopolitical narrative that's being pushed vehemently but irrationally, and upon which masking policies are erroneously based.

what's always ignored in these narratives is that the virus falls apart quickly all by itself outside the cozy confines of the body, not to mention floats away to oblivion quickly when outside.

if we're really concerned about masks working, we'd have to force people to wear them among friends and family in private spaces like homes, not outside and in grocery stores where they have basically no effect.

"masks work" is a grossly overreaching blanket political statement, not a summary of "the science". scientific evidence suggests masks reduce droplets (and aerosols, with better masks) being ejected into the air. there's less clear evidence that it reduces airborne viral particles being inhaled through the mask. but there's almost no evidence that the way we've deployed masks is doing much other than signalling our fears and concerns.

i'd be open to supporting mask policies that are based on actual evidence (e.g., wear them when socializing at home), but not the mediopolitically fearmongering policies we have.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#152
post #111
post #14

I maintain that it isn't just hard, it is computationally impossible. We should all know that given a belief about the world, and evidence, Bayes' Theorem describes how to update our beliefs. But what if we have a network of interrelated beliefs? That's called a Bayesian net, and it turns out that Bayes' Theorem also prescribes a unique answer. However, unfortunately, it turns out that working out that answer is NP-h…

Why bother reasoning with NP-hardness when you can just invoke incompleteness? No brain power limitations are needed.

Because incompleteness isn’t really relevant here?

Are you just saying “people aren’t logically omniscient, and can’t be because of incompleteness”?

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#153
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah, you should have read the second sentence

I don't see how the second sentence makes sense of the first. A perfectly rational actor would not do nothing; they would carry out the most reasonable action given the information available.

But then you're not being perfectly rational. You're calculating the odds, which is what my second sentence says.

Being perfectly rational is impossible.

See: perfect rationality vs bounded rationality

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#154
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a model not a fact. As a model, it can't really be correct only more or less accurate. This is not true. Models of an external world may be only more or less accurate, but models of other models may be true or false. Mathematical proofs rely on this. Rationality itself is a model so models of rationality may be true or false.

Unless you have very peculiar and idiosyncratic definition of the world model, I am fairly confident that what you are saying doesn't make much sense. In economy in a way that is not dissimilar to physics, model has a precise meaning. To quote Wikipedia, it is a simplified version of reality that allows us to observe, understand, and make predictions about economic behavior. You can't have a model of a model. That ju…

> Once again I'm fairly lost by what you are trying to mean.

You may want to look up the difference between formal models and informal models.

Since both rationality and the paper showing that it is bounded are based on formal models, it is reasonable to assume this is what we are talking about.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#155
For starters, who said it's better to be rational?

Not being rational - and instead being based on guts - has an evolutionary advantage (it cuts through the noise, which, in the past could be a life or death situation).

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#156
post #14

I maintain that it isn't just hard, it is computationally impossible. We should all know that given a belief about the world, and evidence, Bayes' Theorem describes how to update our beliefs. But what if we have a network of interrelated beliefs? That's called a Bayesian net, and it turns out that Bayes' Theorem also prescribes a unique answer. However, unfortunately, it turns out that working out that answer is NP-h…

That might be true given a single brain, but we as a species have access to billions of brains.

The question is, can we organize and educate ourselves so we can leverage that parallel power and let each person become experts in their areas with proper trusts and incentives? And manage to pass along the previous generation computation to the next, without corrupting the data?

Edit: And I forgot all the tools we've designed to help us compute all that, of which I'd count math as a tool to help us compute, and computers as another.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#157

The ultimate issue is that underpinning every action is a value system. Value systems are opinions and are fundamentally not rational. Virtually every political disagreement is based on values, though most of the time people dont recognize it. Values determine priorities and priorities underpin action. For example some people feel that liberty (e.g. choice) is more important than saving lives when it comes to vaccine…

I came to say something similar, that rational decision making is really a poorly posed problem at some level.

Take money for example. You can create a theoretical decision-making dilemma involving certain sums of money, and work out what the most rational strategy is, but in reality, the differences between different sums of money is going to differ between people depending on different value systems and competing interests. So then you get into this scenario where 1 unit of money means something different to different people (the value you put on 1 € is going to be different from the value I put on it; the exchange rates are sort of an average over all these valuations), which might throw off the relevance of the theoretical scenario for reality, or change the optimal decision scenario.

The other issue beside the one you're relating to -- the subjectivity of the weights assigned to different outcomes, the achille's heel of utility theory -- is uncertainty not just about the values in the model, but whether the model is even correct at all. That is, you can create some idea that some course of action is more rational, but what happens when there's some nontrivial probability that the whole framework is incorrect? Your decision about A and B, then, shouldn't just be modeled in terms of whatever is in your model, but all the other things you're not accounting for. Maybe there are other decisions, C and D, which you're not even aware of, or someone else is, but you have to choose B to get to them.

Just yesterday I read this very well-reasoned, elegant, rational explanation by an epidemiologist about why boosters aren't needed. But about 3/4 of the way through I realized it was all based on an assumption that is very suspect, and which throws everything out the window. There are still other things their arguments were missing. So by the end of it I was convinced of the opposite conclusion.

Rationality as a framework is important, but it's limited and often misleading.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#158

My problem in everyday work is so often I have to deal with so-called software engineers who fancy themselves quite the scientific thinkers but whose irrationality borders on delusional. In fact a lot of them believe "I'm very smart, so I am therefore the most rational" which is obviously not true at all. In fact this will probably make a lot of so-called software engineers angry but I tend to think of the non-techni…

I have observed that behavior in many other professions where the participants view themselves as very smart. Physicians and lawyers are at the top of that list.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#159

For starters, who said it's better to be rational? Not being rational - and instead being based on guts - has an evolutionary advantage (it cuts through the noise, which, in the past could be a life or death situation).

Intuition could be said to be the opposite of reason, but not rationality. There are whole parts of the rationalist diaspora that emphasize how important it is to be in touch with one's intuitions / feelings and to integrate them successfully into one's decision making process with an aim towards being more rational.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#160
post #145

It's impossible to be perfectly rational without perfect and complete information. Crucially, for questions that affect us personally, this includes perfect insight. I've yet to meet anyone who qualifies.

That's why I appreciate that a rationality website is called LessWrong. Of course you can't be perfectly rational, but you can be less wrong.
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