Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, but the GPLv2 was very freedom oriented. Enforcement practically was relatively sparse and more educational I thought. Ie, release the TiVo source code, but we don't care that Tivo's are locked down. Is anyone building strong communities on AGPLv3 / GPLv3? I feel the momentum shifted towards Apache / MIT style licenses unfortunately.
> but we don't care that Tivo's are locked down. They literally made the GPLv3 because they cared about that very much.
FSF-calls for white papers on philosophical and legal questions around Copilot
151–160 of 209 posts
Re: FSF-calls for white papers on philosophical and legal questions around Copilot
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The big GPLv3 push and development - plenty of attacks on folks actually shipping product on GPLv2 and building communities around that model (which keeps software free but allows users of the software to do what they want with it pretty much including putting in devices that are locked down - cars / tivo's etc). The users of the software are the owners of the devices. The distributors are the ones locking down the…
GPL used to be targeted at DEVELOPERS of software - the share and share alike model. These developers would in some cases use the GPL'ed software in locked down devices (many / most android devices are pretty locked down - but developers contribute to a GPL kernel). So yes, FSF created GPLv3 to focus on USERS freedoms, but the users are not writing the software - so it remains the devs who pick licenses.
Re: FSF-calls for white papers on philosophical and legal questions around Copilot
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
Microsoft (presumably) did train it on their open source repositories, since those repositories are public GitHub repos. They didn't train it on anybody's private repositories.
The point is, if they're sure they won't be recycling copyrighted code wholesale, why not include their own in the training set. Surely their internal code is higher quality than the average git repo, which must be 80% abandonware (if my personal repos are anything to go by :P)
Which is not necessarily hypocritical. The amount of copying needed for something to be copyright infringement is not high… but it's still significantly higher than the amount needed to leak information. For that, just a few words will do, e.g.
// For Windows 12
or // Fuck [company name]
or long secret_key[2] = {0x1234567812345678, 0x8765432187654321};Re: FSF-calls for white papers on philosophical and legal questions around Copilot
#154Re: FSF-calls for white papers on philosophical and legal questions around Copilot
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's useless. It is a problem looking for a solution much like most "AI" tools these days. I am frankly frustrated at everyone buying into this stunt.
I think copilot is the wrong application of AI. It spits out what most coders would write for a specific problem. First, if many people have the same problem, than libraries are the solution, not copy-pasting. Also, just because many people do one thing doesn't mean it is the right thing to do, and you sometimes get code with security vulnerabilities. Instead, I would like a system telling me about obscure things, tr…
Re: FSF-calls for white papers on philosophical and legal questions around Copilot
#156The ignorance in this comment section is already giving me an aneurysm. Software licenses matter. Copyright matters. If megacorps like Microsoft can sue people into oblivion for violating their copyright terms, people can sue Microsoft into oblivion for violating theirs. I don't use MS Github, I have no skin in the game, but I hope there is at-least a $1000 award to every instance of AGPL and GPL license violation be…
Re: FSF-calls for white papers on philosophical and legal questions around Copilot
#157The ignorance in this comment section is already giving me an aneurysm. Software licenses matter. Copyright matters. If megacorps like Microsoft can sue people into oblivion for violating their copyright terms, people can sue Microsoft into oblivion for violating theirs. I don't use MS Github, I have no skin in the game, but I hope there is at-least a $1000 award to every instance of AGPL and GPL license violation be…
> The ignorance in this comment section is already giving me an aneurysm. For the past ten years we've been spoon fed that it's okay for Open Source / Free Software to be co-opted by giants and subsequently kept private. You'll be harassed for telling people it's wrong for Apple to lock down the iPhone. Or that Google shouldn't be in charge of web standards. Web infrastructure is mostly a bunch of black boxes. How fa…
Several cloud providers run OpenStack:
Re: FSF-calls for white papers on philosophical and legal questions around Copilot
#158My money's on yes, but this isn't settled until SCOTUS says so.
>How likely is the output of Copilot to generate actionable claims of violations on GPL-licensed works?
This depends on how likely Copilot is to regurgitate it's training input instead of generate new code. If it only does so IF you specifically ask it to (e.g. by adding Quake source comments to deliberately get Quake input), then the likelihood of innocent users - i.e. people trying to write new programs and not just launder source code - infringing copyright is also low. However, if Copilot tends to spit out substantially similar output for unrelated inputs, then this goes up by a lot. This will require an actual investigation into the statistical properties of Copilot output, something you won't really be able to do without unrestricted access to both the Copilot model and it's training corpus.
>How can developers ensure that any code to which they hold the copyright is protected against violations generated by Copilot?
I'm going to remove the phrase "against violations generated by Copilot" as it's immaterial to the question. Copilot infringement isn't any different from, say, a developer copypasting a function or two from a GPL library.
The answer to that, is that unless the infringement is obvious, it's likely to go unpunished. Content ID systems (which, AFAIK, don't really exist for software) only do "striking similarity" analysis; but the standard for copyright infringement in the US is actually lower: if you can prove access, then you only have to prove "substantial similarity". This standard is intended to deal with people who copy things and then change them up a bit so the judge doesn't notice. There is no way to automate such a check, especially not on proprietary software with only DRM-laden binaries available.
If you have source code, then perhaps you can find some similar parts. Indeed, this is what SCO tried to do to the Linux kernel and IBM AIX; and it turned out that the "copied" code was from far older sources that were liberally licensed. (Also, SCO didn't actually own UNIX.) Oracle also tried doing this to the Java classpath in Android and got smacked down by the Supreme Court. Having the source open makes it easier to investigate; but generally speaking, you need some level of suspicion in order to make it economic to investigate copyright infringement in software.
Occasionally, however, someone's copying will be so hilariously blatant that you'll actually find it. This usually happens with emulators, because it's difficult to actually hire for reverse engineering talent and most platform documentation is confidential. Maui X-Stream plagiarized and infringed PearPC (a PowerPC Macintosh emulator) to produce "CherryOS"; Atari ported old Humongous Entertainment titles to the Wii by copying ScummVM; and several Hyperkin clone consoles feature improperly licensed SNES emulation code. In every case, the copying was obvious to anyone with five minutes and a strings binary, simply because the scope of copied code was so massive.
>Is there a way for developers using Copilot to comply with free software licenses like the GPL?
Yes - don't use it.
I know I just said you can probably get away with stealing small snippets of code. However, if your actual intent is to comply with the GPL, you should just copy, modify, and/or fork a GPL library and be honest about it.
To add onto the FSF's usual complaints about software-as-a-service and GitHub following US export laws (which, BTW, the FSF also has to do, unless Stallman plans to literally martyr himself for--- oh god he'd actually do that); I'd argue that Copilot is unethical to use regardless of concerns over plagiarism or copyright infringement. You have no guarantee that the code you're actually writing actually works as intended, and several people have already been able to get Copilot to hilariously fail on even basic security-relevant tasks. Copilot is an autocomplete system, it doesn't have the context of what your codebase looks like. There are way better autocomplete systems that already exist in both Free and non-Free code that don't require a constant Internet connection to a Microsoft server.
>Should ethical advocacy organizations like the FSF argue for change in copyright law relevant to these questions?
I'm going to say no, because copyright law is already insane as-is and we don't need to make it worse just so that the copyleft hack still works a little better.
Please, for the love of god, we do not need stronger copyrights. We need to chain this leviathan.
Re: FSF-calls for white papers on philosophical and legal questions around Copilot
#159Anyone feel like FSF moved from maybe engineering idealists to a very lawyer driven type org? The big GPLv3 push and development - plenty of attacks on folks actually shipping product on GPLv2 and building communities around that model (which keeps software free but allows users of the software to do what they want with it pretty much including putting in devices that are locked down - cars / tivo's etc). Here's an o…
This is more of a tangent, but I found this framing very interesting: > which keeps software free but allows users of the software to do what they want with it pretty much including putting in devices that are locked down - cars / tivo's etc The FSF considers the user to be the one using cars/tivo's/other devices. In their view, this was a design flaw of gplv2 that it allowed locking out end-users of their devices. F…
https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-t... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27937877 https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017...
Apparently what TiVo did (breaking proprietary software if you modify GPLed software) is even allowed by GPLv3.
Re: FSF-calls for white papers on philosophical and legal questions around Copilot
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, but the GPLv2 was very freedom oriented. Enforcement practically was relatively sparse and more educational I thought. Ie, release the TiVo source code, but we don't care that Tivo's are locked down. Is anyone building strong communities on AGPLv3 / GPLv3? I feel the momentum shifted towards Apache / MIT style licenses unfortunately.
> but we don't care that Tivo's are locked down. They literally made the GPLv3 because they cared about that very much.
https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-t... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27937877 https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017...