Canada declares plastics toxic, paving the way for restrictions • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada declares plastics toxic, paving the way for restrictions

#151

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:09 PM UTC

atom_arranger wrote: post #147

redisman wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plastic is a magically useful and durable material with many orders of magnitude more uses than CFC. I hope you’re right but looking around the world, there are very few objects that aren’t at least partially made out of some polymer. Another question is what to do with all the existing plastic. From what I understand there’s not really anything other than high temperature burning that will safely get rid of it witho…

We could bury it in a giant pit somewhere without a lot of water running through it (prevent leeching). The actual amount of waste there is isn’t actually that high if you were to store it in a giant cube somewhere, the problem is the logistics of that, and the fact that right now it’s everywhere. I can’t find a source right now but I remember something like, if you were to take all the garbage produced by the world…

That does not sound right. Just based on pictures like these:

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/27/world/asia/indias-plague-...

The US alone produces near 300 million tons per year, and a kilometer cube of water weights 1,000 million tons.

https://www.epa.gov/facts-and-figures-about-materials-waste-...

Re: Canada declares plastics toxic, paving the way for restrictions

#152

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:17 PM UTC

_qwfv wrote: post #46

notriddle wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And every time it's happened in the past, the solution has been to leave. There's always been somewhere else to go.

Not every time, or at least the solution doesn't always result in everyone surviving. The Mayan civilization, for instance, is thought to have exhausted their local resources and fallen apart as a result.

Easter Island is another example.

Re: Canada declares plastics toxic, paving the way for restrictions

#153

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:19 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #101

Tax the plastic, and let the market sort out the restrictions. Not only does it result in the most efficient way to "regulate", it results in tax revenue for the government, so they don't need to tax things like jobs.

This has always been the solution, but politically untenable due to actually causing people to sacrifice.

Want less carbon emissions? Tax the source of carbon emissions, I.e. fossil fuels. How much? Keep raising the tax until the consumption levels go down sufficiently.

Same with plastic (although above solution would also prob solve plastics since they come from fossil fuels too).

Bottom line, has and always been, we can’t afford to have this many people living this luxurious of a life (quarter acre lots, single family detached house with 2+ cars, constant AC, $50/hour commercial flights, $0.50 per mile travel costs by car, dialysis for 80+ year olds, etc). Assuming the goal is to leave the environment in the same condition for future generations.

Recycling and reusing is far too little, reduce has been the only solution for a long time.

Re: Canada declares plastics toxic, paving the way for restrictions

#154

Post by ashneo76 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

YES! No to neutralize the opposition from the petrochemical industries, plastic, companies like coke which literally say " as long as there is recycling, pepper disposal of plastic is on the customers". Companies like that are rich by offloading the production cost in the environment which people have to pay

Re: Canada declares plastics toxic, paving the way for restrictions

#155

Post by MarkLowenstein » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #132

MarkLowenstein wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but I can't abide the scientific ignorance being displayed all over this conversation. (1) The first article you cite "Microplastic particles now discoverable in human organs" only announces that some scientists made a technique to discover such particles. The only ones they found were ones they inserted on purpose to verify their technique. That headline leads people strongly to incorrect conclusions like you…

I upvoted you because I want you to come back and tell us how the lego tasted.

Ha, your technique worked! It didn't taste like anything - one of those characteristics of non-reactive chemicals. It did get stuck in my throat on the first try, so I got it down with water like a pill. (It was one of those short/round/1-studded pieces.)

Re: Canada declares plastics toxic, paving the way for restrictions

#156

Post by hedora » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

wernercd wrote: post #123

hedora wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should greatly reduce fishing. This would also help human reduce trafficking, since international fishing boats are often run with slave labor. As for taxing the containers: I think a market based approach would be better. Regardless of what you use in your packaging, you have to pay for it “cradle to grave”. Companies could use whatever packaging they prefer, on the condition that they recapture 100% of the waste…

> often run with slave labor Can that be an excuse to stop any industry? Might as well stop selling phones, books, shoes, clothes and... really any industry. I'm sure they can all be traced back to "slave labor" somewhere.

It’s a bigger issue with fishing than other industries. The slave boats stay in international waters indefinitely, and they hand the fish off to other boats to bring it into port.

Some clothing is sewn in route in international waters, but I get the impression it’s less feasible to transfer the contents of container vessels in open water. Also, it’s harder to conceal the slave labor on those boats: You’d need to make the paperwork match on both sides of the journey if you left with a “skeleton crew” and a load of textiles, and arrived with products ready to sell. There’s no source port for the fish, so that problem becomes easier. You just need to conceal one way shipments of supplies into the ocean.

Clothing manufacturing is also an abusive industry, but I get the impression that fishing wins out in terms of absolute number of literal slaves (not “slaves”, as you put it).

Re: Canada declares plastics toxic, paving the way for restrictions

#157

Post by cmrdporcupine » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

MarkLowenstein wrote: post #155

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I upvoted you because I want you to come back and tell us how the lego tasted.

Ha, your technique worked! It didn't taste like anything - one of those characteristics of non-reactive chemicals. It did get stuck in my throat on the first try, so I got it down with water like a pill. (It was one of those short/round/1-studded pieces.)

The minifigs taste better ;-)

Re: Canada declares plastics toxic, paving the way for restrictions

#158

Post by jameshart » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #40

pedalpete wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you got a source for this concern? Tires are rubber, not plastic as far as I know, and though many textiles are polyester, and fleece is mostly recycled plastics (if I recall) where is the mass use of plastic in the textile industry?

> Tires are rubber, > many textiles are polyester Rubber can be natural or synthetic, and the synthetic rubber is a plastic polymer. Tyres use a mix of natural and synthetic rubber. Polyester can be natural, but it's often synthetic. Synthetic polyester is not biodegradable. A lot of polyester clothing uses synthetic polyester.

I think you may be thinking of viscose/rayon. Pretty sure all polyesters used in manufacturing are synthetic.

Re: Canada declares plastics toxic, paving the way for restrictions

#159

Post by cmrdporcupine » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

ornornor wrote: post #144

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with these kinds of things from this particular gov't is that they are spoken about and press releases are issued.... but they never actually happen. Electoral reform, indigenous reconciliation (or even just clean water for reserves), CO2 reductions, you name it... Ok, we did get cannabis legalization.

> cannabis legalization. Because there was so. much. money. in it. Both from tax revenue and from reduction in policing costs.

Honestly, it's what got them elected. I met lots of people who were going to vote NDP (many of my friends, coworkers) -- or not vote at all (trades people who were working on my house, people I talked to online etc.) -- who got out and voted Liberal because of this issue alone.

It's been a few years now and the world hasn't ended and it doesn't feel like cannabis consumption is any higher really. It was probably good policy to do it. While the NDP (who were ahead of the Liberals in the polls at the beginning of that election and actually in majority territory) have always had legalization as policy, I bet you that Mulcair wouldn't have had the political confidence or buy-in from the provinces to get it through like Trudeau did.

Re: Canada declares plastics toxic, paving the way for restrictions

#160

Post by 8note » Sat, May 22, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

mediaman wrote: post #104

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

74% is still a far cry from a solved problem - what do they do with the quarter that can't be recycled? Aluminium is actually 100% recyclable with some countries approaching 98%. Plastic has symbols that tell you what kind of plastic a given piece of packaging is made of, and the consumers need to figure out which kind are recyclable in their particular state or local area. Then some plastics are thermosetting and th…

We should absolutely push for even higher rates of recycling. High 90s would be fantastic. But even 74% is already much higher than we get with aluminum cans. You say aluminum cans are "100% recyclable", as if they are 100% recycled, but that's a sleight of hand. PET, PP, PE is also "100% recyclable" but the issue here is what actually gets recycled. For aluminum, the actual recycle rates are less than 50% in the US.…

You're talking about Canada though, where aluminum is produced through existing hydro power